strong points, maybe we should burn all of the chocolate it sounds 4th dimension or is that an equasion of butt/time :)
On Sun, 15 Oct 2006, Dale Leavens wrote: > Well here is the thing in my humble opinion and it really is humble. > > A thousand square feet is a modest little house size. I quite simply don't > believe it could be heated with 1500 watts. That is only a little more > energy than your toaster or electric kettle or iron or hair drier uses. > There are cars which the kids cruise around our lake in the middle of our > town have more power in there stereo systems. > > Now if you only need to keep the building a couple of degrees above the out > door temperature this may be adequate but your propane furnace will do that > with little more than a grunt and you have already paid for it and it won't > take up any more space than it already does. > > Now I may well be wrong and you should bear in mind that I am generally more > skeptical and maybe less trusting than I should be. It might well be > possible but I suspect it is an expensive way of converting electricity into > heat which, if it is more efficient has to be only marginally more efficient > and electricity so far is still the most costly energy source in most of the > world. I live under two thousand yards from a cogeneration plant which burns > saw dust from the local mills to supplement natural gas which comes along a > pipeline about 1500 miles from the source of the gas in the ground. They > burn the gas after pumping it half way across the continent and generate > electricity for the grid at a proffit. I don't grasp how heating a home with > that electricity after the losses through the grid can be cheaper than > burning the gas or how you can squeeze more heat out of that electricity > than the gas originally put into it. Of course my wife insists that a few > ounces of chocolate will put five pounds on her and I don't argue that so > perhaps it may be. > > > Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Skype DaleLeavens > Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear habitat. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ralph Supernaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 7:28 AM > Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Quartz Infrared Heaters > > >> These are good points, Dale. When I decided to buy one of these I >> compared >> the cost of running 1500 watts to warm about 1000 square feet of our house >> compared to buying propane for our furnace. My calculations were pretty >> rough but I figured the Sun Twin would pay for itself in one heatin >> season. >> However, propane is down from about $1.80 last winter to about $1.20 right >> now so who knows. >> _____ >> >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> On Behalf Of Dale Leavens >> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 7:55 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Quartz Infrared Heaters >> >> >> >> I find the hype on this device a little hard to read. >> >> The temperature of a room or any space is a function of how fast and far >> the >> >> molecules of air are moving. This takes a fixed amount of energy. The >> structure of the building, the furniture and other contents of the space >> all >> >> are made up of molecules which vibrate and the faster and further they >> move, >> >> the hotter things will be. >> >> Now electricity moves through a conductor more or less at the speed of >> light. When it meets resistance it gives off energy. Typically energy is >> released as sound, various forms of electromagnetic radiation such as >> light, >> >> heat, magnetism often used to perform movement. >> >> Heating with electricity is pretty efficient because the electricity can >> be >> converted directly into various forms of heat. The electromagnetic >> radiation >> >> can be pretty well at any point along the range from very long waves such >> as >> >> long wave radio, up through short wave, UHF, VHF, Microwaves, the spectrum >> of infrared into the light range and beyond ultraviolet through x-rays up >> through gamma and alpha radiation. >> >> Water absorbs radio frequency radiation pretty well but it takes some >> circuitry to produce that sort of energy. Short waves have been used for a >> very long time for therapeutic heat and in the operating room for >> cauterizing for example. Shorter radio waves in what is now known as the >> microwave range are used to efficiently heat water in foods as in cooking >> although that was not the original purpose, it was discovered in the '40s >> as >> >> a side effect of radar radiation, it was not until the invention of the >> magnetron tube by, I believe the British that it was possible to reliably >> produce radio frequency wave lengths in that range. We could heat >> ourselves >> fairly efficiently with microwaves if we were willing to sit in the >> directed >> >> beam of a device but the room around us would not warm and there are other >> risks. >> >> This brings us to the light radiation wave lengths. >> >> While we cannot see infrared light it is there. You can feel it coming off >> your stove top when the elements are on. Infrared radiation will pass >> through optically clear materials such as glass and air, well mostly it >> will. It doesn't generate heat very much until it is absorbed by another >> substance. Like light, it can be absorbed and it can be reflected. It is >> mostly the infrared we feel in the sun, why we can feel heat through a >> glass >> >> window while the window does not get warm. >> >> Some of you will be familiar with those radiant heaters which glow red and >> when the reflector concentrates the light at you, you get warm even if >> surrounding you is cool. >> >> For these to actually heat a room the infrared has to be absorbed by >> something then that heat transferred to the air by convection or >> conduction. >> >> Air, coming into contact with such a substance will become excited, the >> molecules will jump about more and it warms up. >> >> So, an infrared heater may warm you up or parts of your room up, >> eventually >> the entire room by shining on stuff and being absorbed causing the >> molecules >> >> of that stuff, be it you or a table to begin jumping about and causing air >> in contact with that stuff to get excited too. >> >> Inside a heater, the infrared bulbs radiate this low red light which is >> absorbed by some or other material which in turn gets hot and excites air >> in >> >> it's vicinity warming that air which will be moved or circulated either by >> convection or with a fan to warm more air and so on. >> >> Now here is the thing! You can heat oil inside of a panel directly with an >> element and as that panel heats up it will radiate some infrared and it >> will >> >> warm up air touching it through conduction which will then rise and heat >> air >> >> it contacts through convection. Either way, 1500 watts of electricity will >> convert into a fixed amount of heat, some methods will be a little more >> direct than others but the efficiency now is pretty well defined. >> >> You can put ten kilowatts into a brick and the brick will cool over some >> period of time but that isn't free energy as it cools, you put in a lot of >> energy to raise the temperature of that mass so it takes some time for >> that >> energy to defuse. The same ten kilowatts applied more slowly over a longer >> period of time will keep you as warm. >> >> Now there may be many reasons to purchase one particular type of electric >> heater but these days the efficiency will be about the same just because >> that is the limit of physics of it. It is the same reason why no one seems >> to be able to get more energy out of a gallon of gasoline than chemistry >> put >> >> there regardless of the stories of energy companies buying out the patents >> of people inventing super carburetors. >> >> A heat pump might be more efficient in many circumstances because it >> extracts heat from outside air even if that air is cooler than inside air >> and has the other advantage that it can be reversed for cooling in summer >> months but that requires a little more study. >> >> These are just a few thoughts to consider. I think we probably all would >> like to save energy money. It can leave us vulnerable though to hype. >> >> Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:DLeavens%40puc.net> net >> Skype DaleLeavens >> Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear habitat. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Geno" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:ridsto48%40maine.rr.com> rr.com> >> To: <blindhandyman@ <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> >> yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 5:36 PM >> Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Quartz Infrared Heaters >> >>> Ralph, >>> I would very much to know what you think of this unit. >>> Though I use my sun-room for solar heat, the days there is no sun for the >>> sun-room. I am thinking if the reports are good it would be a nice unit >>> to >>> have. >>> So, I would be very interested in your model and it's performance. >>> Geno >>> Portland, ME. sent 5:36 PM EST >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To listen to the show archives go to link >>> http://acbradio. <http://acbradio.org/handyman.html> org/handyman.html >>> or >>> ftp://ftp.acbradio. <ftp://ftp.acbradio.org/acbradio-archives/handyman/> >> org/acbradio-archives/handyman/ >>> >>> The Pod Cast address for the Blind Handy Man Show is. >>> http://www.acbradio >> <http://www.acbradio.org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday> >> .org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday >>> >>> The Pod Cast address for the Cooking In The Dark Show is. >>> http://www.gcast. <http://www.gcast.com/u/cookingindark/main.xml> >> com/u/cookingindark/main.xml >>> >>> Visit The New Blind Handy Man Files Page To Review Contributions From >>> Various List Members At The Following Address: >>> http://www.jaws- <http://www.jaws-users.com/handyman/> >>> users.com/handyman/ >>> Visit the new archives page at the following address >>> http://www.mail- >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/> >> archive.com/[email protected]/ >>> For a complete list of email commands pertaining to the Blind Handy Man >>> list just send a blank message to: >>> blindhandyman- <mailto:blindhandyman-help%40yahoogroups.com> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/475 - Release Date: >>> 13/10/2006 >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> To listen to the show archives go to link >> http://acbradio.org/handyman.html >> or >> ftp://ftp.acbradio.org/acbradio-archives/handyman/ >> >> The Pod Cast address for the Blind Handy Man Show is. >> http://www.acbradio.org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday >> >> The Pod Cast address for the Cooking In The Dark Show is. >> http://www.gcast.com/u/cookingindark/main.xml >> >> Visit The New Blind Handy Man Files Page To Review Contributions From >> Various List Members At The Following Address: >> http://www.jaws-users.com/handyman/ >> Visit the new archives page at the following address >> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> For a complete list of email commands pertaining to the Blind Handy Man >> list just send a blank message to: >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/475 - Release Date: 13/10/2006 >> >> > > > > To listen to the show archives go to link > http://acbradio.org/handyman.html > or > ftp://ftp.acbradio.org/acbradio-archives/handyman/ > > The Pod Cast address for the Blind Handy Man Show is. > http://www.acbradio.org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday > > The Pod Cast address for the Cooking In The Dark Show is. > http://www.gcast.com/u/cookingindark/main.xml > > Visit The New Blind Handy Man Files Page To Review Contributions From Various > List Members At The Following Address: > http://www.jaws-users.com/handyman/ > Visit the new archives page at the following address > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > For a complete list of email commands pertaining to the Blind Handy Man list > just send a blank message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Yahoo! 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