Let me clairify some thing. If I am wrong please some of you gear heads can correct me. I understand that when you put the peddle to the floor and hold it there before you turn the key on and try to start the engine, that this turns off the flow of fuel to the engine at least tempararraly giving the engine the opportunity to push out any unb burned fuel remaining in the cylinder. All I know is that I have used the method of holding the peddle to the floor until the car starts, on many ocations very successfully. If it fails to start with my foot on the peddle then I turn off the key, take my foot off the peddle and try it again. Just to be clear I never never never try to pump the gas with a fuel injected car. Robert
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dale Leavens Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:05 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] The alternater has been planted I always understood that, since the introduction of computerized engine controls that you are never to touch the accelerator when starting, that the computer determines what fuel is required for the prevailing conditions. I didn't think it mattered what sort of fuel mixing method is used however if you force the engine to accept more fuel than it would usually require the computer must adjust all other parameters to that condition to the extent it can. Of course if it cannot or cannot do so adequately then you may have a starting problem. I know loads of people complain about the computer controlled systems but I also well remember a time when I would leave work on a cold day and there would be three or four cars with the hoods up and jumper cables attached. I rarely see that today. Mind you there is global warming as well, not all other variables remain the same. Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:DLeavens%40puc.net> Skype DaleLeavens Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear habitat. ----- Original Message ----- From: robert moore To: [email protected] <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:12 PM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] The alternater has been planted Roger thanks for that info. This car has multi port fuel injection, I think it is called in any event there is a seprat injector for each cilender. I might get some dis agreement from some people here but I will have to slightly disagree with you on the use of the gas peddle with fuel injection. Let me explain. Normally that is correct. However every time I have run across a car with fuel injection that ends up flooded particularly in the dead of winter what I do is hold it to the floor until it starts. Unless there is some thing else wrong with the car this works every time. Other wise great post Thanks. Robert -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: [email protected] <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> ]On Behalf Of Roger Bachelder Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 6:50 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] The alternater has been planted Hi Robert, If i had to guess, i would say that you flooded the car. If I'm correct, i think you most likely have fuel injection. Now, an example here, I unconnect my truck battery while the truck is not in use. this could be 3 or 4 weeks at a time. But when i connect the positive terminal, the truck turns over right away every time. I even got into the habit of turning the key to the on position, and letting it sit for a few seconds, So the system can make it's adjustments, before turning over the engine. Now in your case, You probably flooded the throttle body by pressing the accelerator, and this is why it didn't turn over. now when you turned the key to the off position, and then turned the key back to the on position, this is what you called your "relearning process". the computer had time to Scan and recalculate the system, and make the adjustments to start the car. If you ever have the occasion to disconnect your battery ever again in the future, I would recommend you to turn the key to the on position, and let it sit for about 10 to 15 seconds, before turning over the engine. This should eliminate any starting problems. And remember, Fuel Injection never requires you to press the accelerator when starting the engine. HTH Roger C Bachelder 3rd [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:Bachelder3%40verizon.net> <mailto:Bachelder3%40verizon.net> _____ From: [email protected] <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: [email protected] <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of robert moore Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 11:52 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [BlindHandyMan] The alternater has been planted Yesterday I pulled the alternater out of the 96 grand Am. It took longer to pull it out than it did to install it. As I said before I was able to walk the belt off without any tools but I did not think I could put it back on without moving the tentioner. Thank you all for the information about the special tools available. I went to my friendly autovalue. And rented a kit that has a flat bar and special sockets that the bar snapps onto. It is a really nifty kit. I would have purchessed it but I found the price a bit steep for my budget at this time. The kit was over $55 and I rented it for $8.00. My cousin said the one out of Jakes is just over $20 and it also has all the adapters. I will look at his before I decide weather or not to have him order me one. Any way back to installing the alternator. It was a tight squeeze to get at the tentioner but every thing else was not really too bad. I did not time how long it took me but I am sure it did not take me an hour from start to finish. After I had it all installed and it came time to start the car, it did not want to start. It turned over just fine but would not fire. What happened was since I was concerned about weather I had the belt sitting on all the pullies all the way, I hit the key and as soon as it fired I turned the key back off. My wife was watching the belt and she said it seemed to be OK so then I tried to start it. After cranking it for several seconds a few times I put the peddle to the floor. It started and after I took my foot off the peddle it died. Then I held it to the floor again and it would not fire so at this point I figured if I had flooded it that should have taken care of it. So this time with my foot off the gas I turned it over and it caught immediately just like it always did before. My question after that long explanation is, did I flood the engine or was the computer half asleep from the battery being off over night. I thought I have heard that there is for lack of a better term, a relearning process. Does this apply in this situation? I had my wife film this adventure. I did it as you would do an instructional video. I would like to suggest that those of you that have such an option aught to think about doing the same thing when you are doing some projects. I think at some point it might be a very good teaching tool for people to see the different teckneeks we use to get the job done. -----Original Message----- From: blindhandyman@ <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandyman@ <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Lenny McHugh Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 6:20 AM To: blindhandyman@ <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Trying to remove a serpentine belt. Hi Robert and Art, As the cars are getting more packed it would be harder to do some of the work yourself. I have a 2003 Grand Caravan v6. You can't even see the belt. I had it to the garage last week to have the belt checked. He hat to put it on the lift just to see it. To replace the belt part of the fender must be removed. A neighbor is a good backyard mechanic. I left him pop the hood and he told he would never attempt to change it. To him it looked like a full weekend or longer job. I use to do a lot of the automotive work myself, no longer for me it is not worth the aggorvation. My previous Caravan had an estimate ofover $400 to change the spark plugs. The plentum had to be removed. ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert moore" < robertjmoore@ <mailto:robertjmoore%40embarqmail.com> embarqmail.com <mailto:robertjmoore%40embarqmail.com> > To: < blindhandyman@ <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 12:55 AM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Trying to remove a serpentine belt. Art yes that makes perfect cence. I know exactly what you mean. Where can I get that set and what is the price range that I am looking at. The way things are built any more I am sure this is not going to be a one-time use tool. A fellow could really be a hero with one of those tools. Not to mention getting you're self out of a jam without paying a shop the big bucks. I asked my cousin this very question earlier today and just so happens that he just ordered one out of the jakes catalog yesterday. He thinks they are about $20 or so. Does that sound about wright? And do you think it would be a good option to just have him order me one and pay him back? -----Original Message----- From: blindhandyman@ <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: blindhandyman@ <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> ]On Behalf Of Art Rizzino Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 10:22 PM To: blindhandyman@ <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Trying to remove a serpentine belt. Robert, yes there is a special tool for working with the spring loaded tensioner pulleys. It is a flat bar with some 6 or 12 point holes and there are accessories that push in to the holes to accommodate the different tensioner pulleys. They might be six or four sided or even like sockets. It sounds like you need the four sided type. Also there might be a shorter bar that can be attached to the end of the long bar to help with odd angles. I hope this makes sense to you. Good luck with finishing the alternator job. Art ----- Original Message ----- From: robert moore To: Blind Handyman Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 8:39 PM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Trying to remove a serpentine belt. Hi I am trying to take the tention off of the belt so I can drop it off of the alternator. I have taken these types of belts off before so I know how the tentioner pulley works. Problem I am having is I can't seem to get a wratchet between the fender wall and the scware hole to put my wratchet or braker bar in the scware hole in order to tip it back. Is there a special tool or teckneek that I am missing here? OK well I will ad mit, I cheeted and worked the belt off of the alternator by pushing down on the belt and rolling it back over the pulley. I did manage not to damage the belt but I am sure that is not the best way to do it. I have already given myself a lecture about that one so I don't need one of them but I still need to know how to put the belt back on after I install the alternator. If it helps any it is a 96 pontiac Grand Am This is the newest car that I have actually ever worked on. Every time I work on a car that is newer than one I have worked on before it seems they just keep packing more stuff in smaller spaces. Has this continued every year since? Now days looks like the girls will more and more commen in the modern shops. Us guys with big hands can hardly get into some of those tight spots any more. 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