SG! My LGTM still stands :) On Tue, Sep 6, 2022 at 3:52 PM Dave Tapuska <dtapu...@chromium.org> wrote:
> BFCache has different behavior. Pages are evicted if an extension tries to > communicate with something that is in the cache. We did outreach to help > increase BFCache rates because we know what extensions cause eviction. > > In terms of prerender it is different because extensions can modify/block > content on the page and you really need to do this during the prerender > phase to really do what an extension wants. It is difficult to quantify > which extensions could be broken, but we did do some testing of popular > extensions and discovered no problems. We have finch and enterprise policy > fail safes in place if we do run into something in the wild that is causing > significant issues. > > dave. > > On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 5:33 AM Yoav Weiss <yoavwe...@chromium.org> wrote: > >> Thanks!! Were extensions affected by previous multi-page arch shipped >> features, such as BFCache? >> Is there a way for us to scan the various extension stores, look for >> patterns that would be affected by this change and notify the extension's >> authors ahead of time? >> >> On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 4:23 PM Dave Tapuska <dtapu...@chromium.org> >> wrote: >> >>> I drafted a blog post highlighting the additions/changes to the >>> extension APIs. It is just going through reviews before being posted to >>> developer.chrome.com, hopefully sometime next week. >>> >>> dave. >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 2:49 AM Yoav Weiss <yoavwe...@chromium.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 8:24 AM Takashi Toyoshima <toyos...@chromium.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thank you for the feedback. >>>>> >>>>> Yes, the Extensions is the thing we have paid the biggest attention to >>>>> support Prerendering on Desktop. >>>>> >>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/16Sy2Xq-AcnhwnpC0q232OMSmxTpQYDANRAO-zJ8DKiA/edit?usp=sharing >>>>> This is the document we discussed especially on Prerendering and >>>>> Extensions. In the design discussion we tried finding the best choice to >>>>> minimize possible compatibility breakage for most Extensions, but at the >>>>> same time, we understood it's unavoidable that some Extensions may be >>>>> surprised to see unexpected prerendering pages. >>>>> >>>>> So, our prepared mitigations are >>>>> - Enterprise Policy to disable Prerendering completely >>>>> - Users' report based incompatible Chrome Extensions list that >>>>> disables Prerendering when a user installs one in the list. >>>>> >>>> >>>> That sounds reasonable, but I wonder if more communication to the >>>> extensions community is warranted. >>>> >>>> +Simeon Vincent <sime...@google.com> for thoughts >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> It minimizes the risk to block the rollout for such unexpected >>>>> Extensions compatibility breakages. >>>>> >>>>> For more visibility, here is the crbug entry to report such >>>>> incompatible Extensions quickly. >>>>> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1351312 >>>>> >>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1351312> >>>>> T <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1351312> >>>>> hanks! >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 6:20 AM Daniel Bratell <bratel...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> In addition to the LGTM, I want to point out that during our >>>>>> discussion among the API Owners, we did specifically wonder about >>>>>> extension >>>>>> compatibility. Since this will change things for extensions, I think it >>>>>> will be important to look for compatibility problems popping up, and, if >>>>>> necessary, delay until any such problems are fully understood. >>>>>> >>>>>> /Daniel >>>>>> On 2022-08-31 16:34, Daniel Bratell wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> LGTM3 >>>>>> >>>>>> /Daniel >>>>>> On 2022-08-30 10:58, Yoav Weiss wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> LGTM2 to expand support for desktop. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 8:53 AM TAMURA, Kent <tk...@chromium.org> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> LGTM1. >>>>>>> It's pretty safe to expand support to desktop platforms, and it >>>>>>> seems there are no negative signals. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 4:07 PM 'Angel Raposo' via blink-dev < >>>>>>> blink-dev@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Contact emails >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> toyos...@chromium.org, angelrapo...@google.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Explainer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This I2S aims to expand our efforts on Prerender2 (currently >>>>>>>> shipped only on Android) to Desktop. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The full prerendering revamped explainer can be found at >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/WICG/nav-speculation/blob/main/README.md >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Specification >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://wicg.github.io/nav-speculation/prerendering.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Design docs >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EpLshvc9RRW3vswmXsJGrbCkhlFmxDsWfbvgxmYDTfs >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Summary >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Prerendering is “pre”-rendering, it’s about pre-loading and >>>>>>>> rendering a Web page before the user actually navigates to it. The main >>>>>>>> goal of prerendering is to make the next page navigation faster, or >>>>>>>> ideally >>>>>>>> nearly instant. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sites can inform the user agent about which pages the user may >>>>>>>> likely visit, by asking to trigger a ‘prerendering’ for a particular >>>>>>>> URL >>>>>>>> (e.g. user is at page A and will likely navigate to page B next). Once >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> prerender is triggered, the browser pre-fetches the main resource, >>>>>>>> instantiates a hidden page, and processes the main resource to fetch >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> process more subresources. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> After shipping Prerender2 for Android (I2S speculation rules >>>>>>>> triggered Prerender2 >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/EdW7O8yG7Jc/m/ypgp7pIjBAAJ?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>> and I2S for Omnibox triggered Prerender2 >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/ogegRwcRlcs/m/Aso1a0UcBgAJ>), >>>>>>>> we are now requesting approval to ship Prerender2 for Desktop. This >>>>>>>> release >>>>>>>> will enable the same triggers (speculation rules and Omnibox) for >>>>>>>> Desktop. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With this feature, Chrome (Desktop) will start prerendering >>>>>>>> high-confidence URL suggestions provided by the page using speculation >>>>>>>> rules or directly by Omnibox. During the prerendering process, a page >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> process and construct the full DOM tree, including the execution of >>>>>>>> scripts >>>>>>>> (this differs from No-state Prefetch >>>>>>>> <https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2018/07/nostate-prefetch> >>>>>>>> which only prefetches resources and doesn’t execute scripts). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Note that we are not shipping cross-origin prerendering, which >>>>>>>> allows a web page to prerender another page on a different origin. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Blink component >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Internals>Preload>Prerender >>>>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:Internals%3EPreload%3EPrerender> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> TAG review >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/667 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> TAG review status >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All issues have been addressed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Risks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Interoperability and Compatibility >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Interoperability risk: this feature is focused on enabling >>>>>>>> Prerender on Desktop, which is already launched and available for >>>>>>>> Android. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We believe that some browsers already have prerendering >>>>>>>> implementations which are not specified and may differ from each >>>>>>>> other, or >>>>>>>> not always exposed to the platform. Our vision is to produce a >>>>>>>> specification that can help improve interoperability. There is a risk >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> other browsers do not converge on a prerendering standard but we hope >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> we’ll be able to address legitimate concerns if any are raised by >>>>>>>> interested parties. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Compatibility risk: this feature is focused on enabling Prerender >>>>>>>> on Desktop, which is already launched and available for Android. There >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> some use cases that will need to know whether a page is being >>>>>>>> prerendered >>>>>>>> by the user agent or navigated by the user, e.g. ads and analytics are >>>>>>>> likely examples of this which are supported by already launched >>>>>>>> features >>>>>>>> such as `document.prerendering` which lets a page know that it’s being >>>>>>>> prerendered. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chrome Extensions have abilities to interact with web contents and >>>>>>>> have widely used API surfaces. We’ve been keeping in mind compatibility >>>>>>>> with Extensions’ compatibility, including giving enough capability for >>>>>>>> Extensions to properly support Prerender2 [1]. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A similar concern applies to (P)NaCl/PPAPI. However, these plugins >>>>>>>> are on a deprecation path. In the meantime, given that NaCl permits the >>>>>>>> page to perform powerful operations, we are taking the safe route by >>>>>>>> canceling prerendering if it triggers a request to load a NaCl module. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [1] >>>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EpLshvc9RRW3vswmXsJGrbCkhlFmxDsWfbvgxmYDTfs/edit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gecko: When we launched Prerender2 for Android, we had some >>>>>>>> informal positive discussion with Gecko engineers on the HTML >>>>>>>> Standard issue tracker >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7533#issuecomment-1022051187> >>>>>>>> and in the HTML triage call >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7488#issuecomment-1029510684>; >>>>>>>> formal positions request here: >>>>>>>> https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/613 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> WebKit: WebKit already ships URL-bar triggered prerendering, but >>>>>>>> not any APIs for letting pages know about it, and it's unclear what >>>>>>>> strategy they are using to prohibit disruptive behaviors for >>>>>>>> prerendered >>>>>>>> pages. When we launched Prerender2 for Android, we reached out for a >>>>>>>> formal >>>>>>>> positions request here in the hopes of moving toward interoperability: >>>>>>>> https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2022-February/032113.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Web developers: When we launched Prerender2 for Android, we >>>>>>>> received positive feedback from initial web developers testing the >>>>>>>> speculation rules triggers (see >>>>>>>> https://github.com/WICG/proposals/issues/2 for positive sentiments >>>>>>>> on speculation rules triggered). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Other signals: When we launched Prerender2 for Android we created >>>>>>>> a public request for feedback published ( >>>>>>>> https://web.dev/speculative-prerendering/#feedback-welcome) which >>>>>>>> is currently being managed through: >>>>>>>> https://github.com/WICG/nav-speculation/issues >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ergonomics >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This feature is triggered by the speculation rules API >>>>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/feature/5740655424831488> and Omnibox. >>>>>>>> We don't anticipate any conflict with other Platform APIs. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> IT admins can disable Prerender2 via the existing group policy >>>>>>>> "NetworkPredictionOptions" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We are shipping the same web-exposed APIs previously launched on >>>>>>>> Android: document.prerendering, prerenderingchange event and >>>>>>>> performanceEntry.activationStart timing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Activation >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two mechanisms to trigger a prerender: (1) Speculation >>>>>>>> rules in which developers can immediately take advantage of this >>>>>>>> feature by >>>>>>>> defining suggestions that the user agent will take into consideration >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> deciding if a page is likely going to be browsed next. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (2) Omnibox where the user agent decides if an URL should be >>>>>>>> prerendered according to different heuristics. Both of these >>>>>>>> triggers are already shipped for Android. With this request, we want to >>>>>>>> allow Desktop to also trigger Prerender2 in the same scenarios. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The feature should just work for most existing pages but developers >>>>>>>> should be aware of restrictions on prerendering content (they cannot >>>>>>>> play >>>>>>>> audio or perform other disruptive behavior, etc.). As we grow our >>>>>>>> reach of >>>>>>>> navigations by enabling the Desktop version, we will pay special >>>>>>>> attention >>>>>>>> to the documentation available to developers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We’ve also paid close attention to extensions. We believe that >>>>>>>> extensions shouldn’t be affected by this feature as the restricted >>>>>>>> features >>>>>>>> are deferred behind a Promise resolution, and many extensions appear to >>>>>>>> just work transparently. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To report breakages in extensions developers have two options: they >>>>>>>> can comment on the extensions related compatibility issue at >>>>>>>> https://crbug.com/1351312, or they can discuss the desired API >>>>>>>> surface in the mail group: >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/chromium-extensions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Security >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We are scaling an already shipped feature in Android to cover >>>>>>>> Desktop. The speculation rules API was the first use of the >>>>>>>> Multiple-Page Architecture, which is a significant change to Chromium's >>>>>>>> internals. Both MPArch and the speculation rules API underwent >>>>>>>> significant >>>>>>>> security review. From a web-exposed perspective, the security and >>>>>>>> privacy concerns are smaller, because this feature is restricted to the >>>>>>>> same-origin case only. WebView application risks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Prerendering is not supported on WebView and doesn’t deprecate or >>>>>>>> change behavior of existing APIs directly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Debuggability >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We are actively talking to the DevTools team about adding general >>>>>>>> Prerender support to it [metabug >>>>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1217029>] >>>>>>>> with a current focus in providing meaningful debugging messages. The >>>>>>>> current MVP is to reveal the status of prerendered pages so web >>>>>>>> developers >>>>>>>> can know if prerendering succeeded or not. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> See [this document >>>>>>>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YEAfcuBjwlJn7GG6po8AFteObG15r9ro63fdFfcMvoI/edit>] >>>>>>>> for our longer-term plan for improving the experience of debugging >>>>>>>> prerendering with DevTools. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Prerendered pages are also visible in chrome://process-internals. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows, >>>>>>>> Mac, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No. Prerender2 was originally shipped on Android. This Intent >>>>>>>> expands it to cover Windows, Mac, Linux, and Chrome OS. It remains >>>>>>>> disabled >>>>>>>> on Android WebView. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests >>>>>>>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/main/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md> >>>>>>>> ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We have written a lot of web platform tests using speculation rules >>>>>>>> as the trigger: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://wpt.fyi/results/speculation-rules/prerender?label=experimental&label=master&aligned >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Flag name >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Prerender2 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Requires code in //chrome? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> True >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tracking bug >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://crbug.com/1278141 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Launch bug >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://crbug.com/1332400 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Estimated milestones >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> DevTrial on desktop >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 105 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> DevTrial on Android >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Already shipped on 103 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anticipated spec changes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With this I2S we are aiming to scale already shipped APIs to >>>>>>>> Desktop. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When we shipped the speculation rules, we reviewed all the current >>>>>>>> pending discussions >>>>>>>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eFY7RMoeG7Mdhon9yLs6hKSfi6DYrASBPM-31hWXPDg/edit> >>>>>>>> and all of them were resolved with the initial launch without causing >>>>>>>> compatibility issues. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5197044678393856 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Links to previous Intent discussions >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Intent to prototype: >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAFWCB1n7W-gfr9b8FTNtB1bNDnYJ_%3DkSfWiY%2BtfGyqjuXe52zA%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAFWCB1n7W-gfr9b8FTNtB1bNDnYJ_=ksfwiy+tfgyqjuxe5...@mail.gmail.com> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status >>>>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/>. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Angel Raposo | Engagement Manager | angelrap...@google.com | >>>>>>>> Google Japan G.K. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This email may be confidential or privileged. If you received this >>>>>>>> communication by mistake, please don't forward it to anyone else, >>>>>>>> please >>>>>>>> erase all copies and attachments, and please let me know that it went >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> the wrong person. Thanks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The above terms reflect a potential business arrangement, are >>>>>>>> provided solely as a basis for further discussion, and are not >>>>>>>> intended to >>>>>>>> be and do not constitute a legally binding obligation. No legally >>>>>>>> binding >>>>>>>> obligations will be created, implied, or inferred until an agreement in >>>>>>>> final form is executed in writing by all parties involved. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> もし、このメッセージが誤って貴殿に送信されたと思われる場合には、機密情報を含んでいる可能性もありますので、どなたにも転送せず、添付ファイルも含めて削除していただくとともに、発信者にその旨をお伝えいただきますようお願いいたします。 >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. >>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAA9vRHy7_o1ftcTz2-pC5rOPtZRhas5PGLw4HJ--v%2Bewkvcoww%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAA9vRHy7_o1ftcTz2-pC5rOPtZRhas5PGLw4HJ--v%2Bewkvcoww%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> TAMURA Kent >>>>>>> Software Engineer, Google >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. >>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAGH7WqGfDVX7aWqdHt9skKSsnZcvvGHa9F6ZWshvGnVDJ24EAQ%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAGH7WqGfDVX7aWqdHt9skKSsnZcvvGHa9F6ZWshvGnVDJ24EAQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAL5BFfUr2bVZHm-GCy0Eh18rXY4HcZ0yv2EEsT_S1o7ORm%2BCtg%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAL5BFfUr2bVZHm-GCy0Eh18rXY4HcZ0yv2EEsT_S1o7ORm%2BCtg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/e6aff414-3ed1-2714-7d59-7dcfb7582391%40gmail.com >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/e6aff414-3ed1-2714-7d59-7dcfb7582391%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Takashi Toyoshima >>>>> Software Engineer, Google >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAL5BFfWo1dYYKB-HfEi19BW0isGziXbd57GpMLp6pT9rPSH1rA%40mail.gmail.com >>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAL5BFfWo1dYYKB-HfEi19BW0isGziXbd57GpMLp6pT9rPSH1rA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "blink-dev" group. 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