On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 at 01:07, Vladimir Levin <vmp...@chromium.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2023 at 1:16 AM 'Fergal Daly' via blink-dev <
> blink-dev@chromium.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 at 13:55, Fergal Daly <fer...@google.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 at 12:29, Vladimir Levin <vmp...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you for the update!
>>>>
>>>> This is a good write up. One comment / question below
>>>>
>>>> From the doc:
>>>> > Note that the pageshow event will trigger before the page is
>>>> rendered for the first time upon being restored from a back/forward
>>>> navigation, which guarantees that your login state check will let you reset
>>>> the page to a non sensitive state.
>>>>
>>>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the viz surface displaying the
>>>> persisted contents may be embedded and shown before the page produces a new
>>>> frame. So although technically it is correct that this event will fire
>>>> before the page produces a rendering and a new frame, a version of the
>>>> content may be shown prior to that.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure if I'm being overly pedantic here, or whether my
>>>> understanding of this flow is incorrect.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know if that's correct. I didn't think we kept any of the pixels
>>> while in BFCache. If you are correct, that sounds like a bug. I've filed
>>> https://crbug.com/1508728. Do you know who would know the answer to
>>> this?
>>>
>>
>> This is weird. Here's a test page
>> https://fergald.github.io/random/bfcache/pixels/ When it's restored from
>> BFCache it has a pageshow handlers that
>> - pauses for 5s
>> - flips the colour from red->blue or blue->red.
>>
>> What's weird is that going fwd/back
>>
>> on desktop:
>> - the old BG-Colour is shown for 5s (but the page seems to be blank apart
>> from that)
>>
>
> I see the old page being shown for 5 seconds in this case, which I think
> is the viz surface that can presumably expose sensitive information:
> https://youtu.be/Bld0EWWpQcQ I don't know if the treatment is different
> if we have CCNS.
>

CCNS is not BFCached, so there is likely to be no special treatment of
CCNS. Let's figure this out on the bug. Thanks,

F


>
> I've cc'ed some people on the bug that would know for sure.
>
> Thanks!
>
> - then the content appears and the colour changes
>>
>
>> on mobile:
>> - the current page is shown for 5s
>> - then the content appears and the colour changes
>>
>> I'm not sure which behaviour I would describe as correct. I guess it's
>> best to keep showing the old content rather than flashing an empty page if
>> pageshow is taking a long time.
>>
>> Either way, in both cases we do not see the old content but I think we
>> should clean this up and also put in something to guard against a change
>> where the old content is shown,
>>
>> F
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> The same issue comes up in discussions of a back-preview (e.g. on mobile
>>> when gesturing the go back, we could show a snapshot of the page) and the
>>> intention there is to never do this with CCNS pages,
>>>
>>> F
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again for the write up
>>>> Vlad
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Dec 5, 2023, 19:37 'Fergal Daly' via blink-dev <
>>>> blink-dev@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We now have a published doc
>>>>> <https://web.dev/articles/sign-out-best-practices> that covers best
>>>>> practices for BFCache/CCNS (and much more) during logout. Please let us
>>>>> know if you have any feedback on it.
>>>>>
>>>>> We will proceed with cautiously rolling out this change. Thanks
>>>>> everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> F
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 at 13:37, Fergal Daly <fer...@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks everyone. Yes we will keep this thread up to date before
>>>>>> releasing this (we'll go to canary/dev very soon so that we start getting
>>>>>> stability and impact signals),
>>>>>>
>>>>>> F
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 at 05:30, Vladimir Levin <vmp...@chromium.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If possible, can you share this document on this thread when it is
>>>>>>> available?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2023 at 12:52 PM Yoav Weiss <yoavwe...@chromium.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> LGTM3 with the same condition.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2023 at 6:44 PM Mike Taylor <miketa...@chromium.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +1, thank you. LGTM2 w/ same condition.
>>>>>>>>> On 11/15/23 12:39 PM, Daniel Bratell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for getting the security people to weigh in on this because
>>>>>>>>> that was really the main question for me. And it will still be 
>>>>>>>>> controllable
>>>>>>>>> by a finch flag.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> LGTM1 dependent on there being a published document outlining the
>>>>>>>>> options for web developers (i.e. the document you are already working 
>>>>>>>>> on).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> /Daniel
>>>>>>>>> On 2023-11-10 09:45, Fergal Daly wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Nov 2023 at 17:29, Yoav Weiss <yoavwe...@chromium.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks David!
>>>>>>>>>> It's great to see that this will be disabled in modes where we
>>>>>>>>>> *know* the machine is shared.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Fergal - could you address concerns about web developer advice?
>>>>>>>>>> What should we tell web developers to do on their logout pages?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, we are in discussion with dev-rel about this. They were
>>>>>>>>> already looking at producing advice for auth best practices. We will 
>>>>>>>>> ensure
>>>>>>>>> that this is covered in that,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> F
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 8:37 AM David Dworken <
>>>>>>>>>> ddwor...@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Chiming in to say that we discussed the security concerns around
>>>>>>>>>>> this proposal quite extensively internally and overall we believe 
>>>>>>>>>>> that with
>>>>>>>>>>> the short timeout, the security risks are acceptable. The residual 
>>>>>>>>>>> security
>>>>>>>>>>> risk is for servers that implement purely server-side logouts and 
>>>>>>>>>>> is only
>>>>>>>>>>> exploitable for a very short period of time (3 minutes). In 
>>>>>>>>>>> addition, other
>>>>>>>>>>> mitigations like this one
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1468438> 
>>>>>>>>>>> further
>>>>>>>>>>> reduce the risk such that we believe it is unlikely that this will 
>>>>>>>>>>> lead to
>>>>>>>>>>> new security issues.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 7:14:46 AM UTC-7
>>>>>>>>>>> vmp...@chromium.org wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 12:00 AM 'Fergal Daly' via blink-dev <
>>>>>>>>>>> blin...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 at 23:05, Yoav Weiss <yoav...@chromium.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 3:56 PM Vladimir Levin <
>>>>>>>>>>> vmp...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any spec changes planned for this feature? I'm not
>>>>>>>>>>> sure if the README linked under Specification is meant to make it 
>>>>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>>>> WHATWG, maybe to close out
>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7189
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The only spec I could find about CCNS is
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9111#section-5.2.1.5, so I'm
>>>>>>>>>>> not sure how to reconcile possibly contradicting language in the 
>>>>>>>>>>> specs
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Great questions! Fergal - can you answer that?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> RFC9111 is about HTTP caches. BFCache is not a HTTP cache, so
>>>>>>>>>>> RFC 9111 does not apply. Of course the reality of implementations 
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> expectations vs spec is a problem. Some more discussion here
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/fergald/explainer-bfcache-ccns/blob/main/README.md#current-interactions-between-bfcache-and-ccns>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure I agree with this, or the reasoning in the link.
>>>>>>>>>>> First of all, this intent thread is about ignoring CCNS in _some 
>>>>>>>>>>> cases_. In
>>>>>>>>>>> other cases, CCNS is respected, so it seems like BFCache is de facto
>>>>>>>>>>> subject to RFC 9111.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is, I guess, a bit philosophical but the spec says:
>>>>>>>>>>> the cache MUST NOT intentionally store the information in
>>>>>>>>>>> non-volatile storage and MUST make a best-effort attempt to remove 
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> information from volatile storage as promptly as possible after 
>>>>>>>>>>> forwarding
>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Note that the spec here does not make any exceptions for things
>>>>>>>>>>> like cookie state not changing or anything else. The document when 
>>>>>>>>>>> frozen
>>>>>>>>>>> is indeed a volatile storage of the server response, processed and 
>>>>>>>>>>> stored
>>>>>>>>>>> in some particular format (ie the DOM tree). I admit it's a bit 
>>>>>>>>>>> weird to
>>>>>>>>>>> think about it this way, since the live document is technically 
>>>>>>>>>>> also this
>>>>>>>>>>> cache. Whereas I agree that BFCache is not strictly an HTTP Cache, 
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> quite follow why CCNS should not apply to the BFCache in some cases.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To me, BFCache seems like "a better http cache" which already
>>>>>>>>>>> has rendered results, not a completely separate cache that is not 
>>>>>>>>>>> subject
>>>>>>>>>>> to CCNS.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But I'm late to the game, and I see that the topic of "BFCache
>>>>>>>>>>> is not HTTP Cache" has already been discussed a lot. I'm not 
>>>>>>>>>>> convinced by
>>>>>>>>>>> existing arguments, but I also don't think I'll be able to convince 
>>>>>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>>>>>> of my position.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My problem with the consensus in
>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/5744 is the following.
>>>>>>>>>>> People seem to agree that we don't want a *new* api that 
>>>>>>>>>>> specifically
>>>>>>>>>>> prevents pages from entering BFCache. I don't believe it's 
>>>>>>>>>>> appropriate to
>>>>>>>>>>> draw a conclusion that there is consensus that BFCache should not be
>>>>>>>>>>> subject to any *existing* APIs that prevent pages from entering it. 
>>>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>>>> might be true independently, but I don't think one follows from the 
>>>>>>>>>>> other.
>>>>>>>>>>> To quote this comment
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/5744#issuecomment-811958634>
>>>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>> "... And what is the problem with the bank case? I'd expect bank
>>>>>>>>>>> may want to ensure its page doesn't enter bfcache, or any other 
>>>>>>>>>>> cache, by
>>>>>>>>>>> using no-store (and other) header(s) or something ..."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That comment sounds to me like "the status quo is good enough,
>>>>>>>>>>> because there are already ways of preventing any cache, including 
>>>>>>>>>>> bfcache."
>>>>>>>>>>> If we were to claim consensus on doing this work, I'd personally 
>>>>>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>>>>>> see a more explicit "let's make it so pages still enter BFCache 
>>>>>>>>>>> despite
>>>>>>>>>>> CCNS in these cases." The comment from cdumez you quoted is good, 
>>>>>>>>>>> but maybe
>>>>>>>>>>> following-up there is worthwhile.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I concede though that I'm by no means an expert here, so I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> want to block moving this forward any longer. I just want to say 
>>>>>>>>>>> that it's
>>>>>>>>>>> typically easy to be fast if you show stale data, and shifting the 
>>>>>>>>>>> blame to
>>>>>>>>>>> the site for using CCNS instead of refreshing needed content in 
>>>>>>>>>>> script
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't seem appropriate. I personally would not want to be the 
>>>>>>>>>>> judge of
>>>>>>>>>>> whether CCNS use is appropriate or not since I don't know what
>>>>>>>>>>> "appropriate" is in this case.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> BFCache and cases where it can/can't be used are specced in the
>>>>>>>>>>> HTML standard. We have had very little engagement from other 
>>>>>>>>>>> vendors on
>>>>>>>>>>> this particular idea but Safari tried to cache all CCNS pages in 
>>>>>>>>>>> the past.
>>>>>>>>>>> I am hoping that if we demonstrate a way to cache some of them 
>>>>>>>>>>> safely, they
>>>>>>>>>>> would be on board. Also any browser is free to be *more* 
>>>>>>>>>>> conservative than
>>>>>>>>>>> the spec while still staying in-spec as BFCaching at all is always 
>>>>>>>>>>> optional.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/5744#issuecomment-661997090>
>>>>>>>>>>> is cdumez of Safari
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Safari / WebKit shipped with all pages going into the bfcache no
>>>>>>>>>>> matter what (including cache-control: no-store). The only push
>>>>>>>>>>> back we received was the fact that after you log out of a site, you 
>>>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>>> still go back and see a page you should no longer be able to see. 
>>>>>>>>>>> We agreed
>>>>>>>>>>> that this feedback was valid and our short-term fix was to bypass 
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> bfcache when the page uses cache-control: no-store. Sadly, many
>>>>>>>>>>> sites use this and their intention is likely not to prevent the 
>>>>>>>>>>> bfcache.
>>>>>>>>>>> This is not something we like for the long term.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> F
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, Vlad previously asked about the recommended pattern for
>>>>>>>>>>> folks to handle credential revocation with BFCache and his concerns 
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> the snippet suggested upthread. It'd be great to address that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>> vmpstr
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 2:32 AM Yoav Weiss <yoav...@chromium.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I just discussed this with Fergal offline:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    - The risky scenario is one where revocation of sensitive
>>>>>>>>>>>    info (logout, access revoked) happens on the server-side only 
>>>>>>>>>>> without a
>>>>>>>>>>>    client-side update.
>>>>>>>>>>>    - In such a scenario on a shared computer, someone could
>>>>>>>>>>>    back-button their way into someone else's sensitive info.
>>>>>>>>>>>    - It might be interesting to talk to security folks (and
>>>>>>>>>>>    maybe Project Zero folks) to see if this is not happening 
>>>>>>>>>>> already with
>>>>>>>>>>>    content that's not CCNS decorated.
>>>>>>>>>>>    - It would be good to run a survey of
>>>>>>>>>>>    potentially-sensitive services and try to get a signal from them 
>>>>>>>>>>> on how
>>>>>>>>>>>    many of them are properly doing revocation on the client side.
>>>>>>>>>>>       - I'd love ideas on how we can scale such a survey beyond
>>>>>>>>>>>       manual inspection of a few known services.
>>>>>>>>>>>    - It could be interesting to try and ship a version of this
>>>>>>>>>>>    with a shorter timeout, to minimize the risk of users leaving 
>>>>>>>>>>> the machine
>>>>>>>>>>>    unattended.
>>>>>>>>>>>       - If we go that route, it'd be good to think through how
>>>>>>>>>>>       we'd be able to increase that timeout over time, after 
>>>>>>>>>>> gaining more
>>>>>>>>>>>       confidence that the risky scenario isn't happening in the 
>>>>>>>>>>> wild.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 2:36 AM Jason Robbins <jrob...@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> At this morning's API Owners meeting, they asked me to add all
>>>>>>>>>>> review gate types to all of the "web developer facing code change" 
>>>>>>>>>>> features
>>>>>>>>>>> that are currently under review, including this one.  So, I have 
>>>>>>>>>>> added
>>>>>>>>>>> Privacy, Security, Enterprise, Debuggability, and Testing gates to 
>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>> feature entry.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Please click the gate chips in the "Prepare to ship" stage on
>>>>>>>>>>> your feature detail page.  For each one, answer survey questions and
>>>>>>>>>>> request that of the cross-functional review.  You can request them 
>>>>>>>>>>> all in
>>>>>>>>>>> parallel.  In cases where you already have the go/launch
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://goto.google.com/launch> bit approved, you can note
>>>>>>>>>>> that in a comment on that gate for a potentially faster review.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>> jason!
>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 9:09:18 AM UTC-7 Jason Robbins
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, September 29, 2023 at 1:01:54 PM UTC-7 Chris
>>>>>>>>>>> Harrelson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Please also make sure to complete all of the other shipping
>>>>>>>>>>> gate reviews
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/bqvB1oap0Yc/m/YlO8DEHgAQAJ>
>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think a bug in ChromeStatus may have caused some confusion on
>>>>>>>>>>> this feature entry.  The feature entry has type "Web developer 
>>>>>>>>>>> facing code
>>>>>>>>>>> change", so its bilnk-dev thread should have had subject line prefix
>>>>>>>>>>> "Web-facing change PSA" rather than "Intent to ship".  And, 
>>>>>>>>>>> according to
>>>>>>>>>>> the launching-features doc
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.chromium.org/blink/launching-features/#psa-prepare-to-ship>,
>>>>>>>>>>> it does not require any approvals, which is why there are no other 
>>>>>>>>>>> gates
>>>>>>>>>>> offered in the ChromeStatus UI.  A fix for that subject-line prefix 
>>>>>>>>>>> bug
>>>>>>>>>>> should go live today.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, the point of a PSA is to allow concerns to be raised
>>>>>>>>>>> and I see that this is a very active thread.  So, all that should 
>>>>>>>>>>> be worked
>>>>>>>>>>> through.  Its a mater of the the API Owners prerogative to request 
>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>> other reviews that they think are appropriate, but it is not 
>>>>>>>>>>> automatically
>>>>>>>>>>> required by the process for this feature type.  Also, I see that 
>>>>>>>>>>> the launch
>>>>>>>>>>> entry <https://launch.corp.google.com/launch/4251651> had some
>>>>>>>>>>> approvals.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>> jason!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>>> .
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>>>>>>>> .
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>>>>> .
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