Thank you all! I will proceed cautiously. A few comments below... On Tue, May 21, 2024 at 6:37 AM Mike Taylor <miketa...@chromium.org> wrote:
> I had a slight concern about the quilljs usage - even though they've > minted a new version, we know that getting sites to update is a major > hurdle. That said, after reading through the comments and linked issues on > upstream repos (react-quill, etc) - nobody seems to be describing any > breakage, they just want the warning to go away. :) > I agree that in *all* of the cases where I've seen public issues discussing this, it was just users saying there was a funny warning that made them uncomfortable, not reporting something "broken". Which is good on two fronts: 1) things might not break, and 2) console warnings do work sometimes! > On 5/20/24 1:09 AM, Domenic Denicola wrote: > > LGTM2. This is extremely exciting. I hope that in a year, the deprecation > process is fully complete, and we get to enjoy deleting a lot of > code/specs/maybe tests. > > I look forward to deleting that code/spec also! That's the dopamine reward at the end of all painful deprecations. > I agree with your instinct to go to 100% directly with the 127 release. > > Thanks. > On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 12:18 AM Philip Jägenstedt <foo...@chromium.org> > wrote: > >> In https://github.com/WebKit/standards-positions/issues/192 the point is >> made that there are other events that fire with the same timing as mutation >> events, so this removal doesn't unblock everything. Nevertheless, I share >> the assessment that mutation events "significantly increase the complexity >> of adding new features to the Web" so if removal is within reach I think >> we should go for it. From >> https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/807 it's clear >> that there is enthusiasm beyond the Chromium project too. >> > The team working on the "state preserving atomic moves" API has managed to navigate around all of the other such synchronous events, leaving only mutation events in their way. So I actually do believe this removal unblocks a new, cool API that is in the works this year. > Rolling this out with Finch is definitely prudent, and I agree with the >> argument for going directly to 100% in 127 to make for a less confusing >> debugging experience. >> > Thanks. At least two votes for straight-to-100%, so that's what I'll do. > LGTM1 to this plan, while being ready to adapt to things that come up in >> the process. >> > I will definitely be very careful in rolling this out. Thanks, Mason > Best regards, >> Philip >> >> On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 9:28 PM Mason Freed <mas...@chromium.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 11:00 AM Vladimir Levin <vmp...@chromium.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I looked into the UKM data about three months ago, before I started the >>>>> experiment to disable all mutation events on Canary/Dev/Beta. I looked at >>>>> the top ~30 UKM hits and dug into the site's code to see what the usage >>>>> was. Many (~40% or so?) of the top sites usage was due to quilljs >>>>> <https://github.com/quilljs/quill/issues/3806> which has since >>>>> updated their code to not rely on mutation events. Another maybe 10% was >>>>> due to a Sharepoint 2016 mquery.js utility >>>>> <https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/sharepoint/sharepoint-2016-server-mquery-js-event-deprecation/m-p/3947764>, >>>>> for which several folks have requested support from MS, but it's a bit >>>>> unclear what the plan is. The rest of the sites appeared to have bespoke >>>>> code looking at mutation events. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Is Sharepoint 10% of the 1% usage? According to the thread you linked >>>> <https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/sharepoint/sharepoint-2016-server-mquery-js-event-deprecation/m-p/4103969/highlight/true#M80109> >>>> they >>>> will fix it in a Sept 2024 release but seem like they won't backport the >>>> fix to previous versions. That seems a bit risky, but also I'm not sure >>>> what the breakage looks like and as you say, things seem to work. >>>> >>> >>> I don't have a great way to break down how much of the 1% is represented >>> by the Sharepoint library, because it just shows up as a JS dependency on >>> affected sites. And yes that's what the public thread there says, though >>> I'm not sure how authoritative that is. I've reached out privately to MS to >>> see if there's more info I can glean. Just to confirm, I can't "see" any >>> breakage on those sites. The most "visible" thing, which is what gets folks >>> to report issues like the Sharepoint one, is the console warning that >>> mutation events are being used and might break. Those had the intended >>> effect in all of these cases, which is a good thing. >>> >>> >>>> And finally, of course, assuming I'm approved to disable in M127, I'll >>>>> be very mindful of breakage and will flip the events back on immediately >>>>> in >>>>> the case that there is more breakage than I'm expecting. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Is the plan to do a finch rollout, something like 1% stable increasing >>>> week by week? Or were you just thinking of enabling it in 127 without >>>> finch? >>>> >>> >>> So I'm definitely planning to launch this via Finch, so I can be >>> guaranteed that un-launching it that way will "work" for all platforms. But >>> I could go either way on the question of whether to ramp up slowly or go >>> directly to 100% with the 127 release. I was leaning toward 100% of 127 on >>> stable release day, because I think that'll be the least confusing for >>> people experiencing issues. I.e. they relaunch their browser into 127 and >>> something breaks - they now understand what caused it. When the breakage >>> starts on some random day, and isn't repeatable across computers, they have >>> a harder time knowing they should report a bug. And I want to maximize the >>> chance that issues get reported quickly. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Mason >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Let me know if anything else would help make the case that we should >>>>> go forward with this. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Mason >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Chrome has shipped an experiment since M124 that disables all >>>>>>>> Mutation Events for 99% of users of Canary, Dev, and Beta versions of >>>>>>>> Chrome. Very few bugs have been filed in the intervening months, and >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> that were filed have been resolved quickly via the site owner making >>>>>>>> changes to not rely on the deprecated events. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> This gives me significant confidence that removing the events will >>>>>>>> not be as big of a deal as the use counters would suggest. Still, due >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> the still-high numbers, extreme care will be taken in the removal >>>>>>>> process. >>>>>>>> I plan to disable the events via Finch only, so that if issues are >>>>>>>> encountered, Finch will be a safe way to re-enable the events. >>>>>>>> Additionally, there are the deprecation trial and enterprise policies >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> offer an easy relief valve for affected sites. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Gecko*: Positive ( >>>>>>>> https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/807) "very >>>>>>>> strong positive position" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *WebKit*: No signal ( >>>>>>>> https://github.com/WebKit/standards-positions/issues/192) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Web developers*: No signals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Other signals*: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Activation >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This npm package attempts to polyfill Mutation Events using >>>>>>>> Mutation Observer: https://www.npmjs.com/package/mutation-events. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> WebView application risks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, >>>>>>>> such that it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based >>>>>>>> applications? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> None >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Debuggability >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows, >>>>>>>> Mac, Linux, ChromeOS, Android, and Android WebView)? Yes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests >>>>>>>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/main/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md> >>>>>>>> ? No >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Flag name on chrome://flags mutation-events >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Finch feature name MutationEvents >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Requires code in //chrome? False >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tracking bug https://crbug.com/1446498 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Estimated milestones >>>>>>>> Shipping on desktop 127 >>>>>>>> Origin trial desktop first 124 >>>>>>>> Origin trial desktop last 134 >>>>>>>> Shipping on Android 127 >>>>>>>> OriginTrial Android last 134 >>>>>>>> OriginTrial Android first 124 >>>>>>>> Shipping on WebView 127 >>>>>>>> OriginTrial webView last 134 >>>>>>>> OriginTrial webView first 124 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anticipated spec changes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Open questions about a feature may be a source of future web compat >>>>>>>> or interop issues. Please list open issues (e.g. links to known github >>>>>>>> issues in the project for the feature specification) whose resolution >>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>> introduce web compat/interop risk (e.g., changing to naming or >>>>>>>> structure of >>>>>>>> the API in a non-backward-compatible way). >>>>>>>> None >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status >>>>>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5083947249172480?gate=5111010140094464 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Links to previous Intent discussions Intent to Deprecate: >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/qDsKRU-cQ_4/m/isA1mZ_aAAAJ >>>>>>>> Intent to Experiment: >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/z-VIfSOco4k/m/KDz9c_goAAAJ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status >>>>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/>. >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. >>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAM%3DNeDjonGju3YX1WkXtEJrMGLo4bH9AqtwV0QoqvopdGNioAg%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAM%3DNeDjonGju3YX1WkXtEJrMGLo4bH9AqtwV0QoqvopdGNioAg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. >>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAOmohSJzmUKZo5K0TwixDRx0J5JfcNzugO3C%2BPVac-sB-3M-0g%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAOmohSJzmUKZo5K0TwixDRx0J5JfcNzugO3C%2BPVac-sB-3M-0g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAM%3DNeDgfmwE9%3DKjAuKSZKEw_3CQ9tWenNa0yfLo8QXG6EyZ5uw%40mail.gmail.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAM%3DNeDgfmwE9%3DKjAuKSZKEw_3CQ9tWenNa0yfLo8QXG6EyZ5uw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAM%3DNeDjm%2BgJ%3D5HEe6-DH1uG37Dwvn_iL6jZKytYSk4aHhZkoPA%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAM%3DNeDjm%2BgJ%3D5HEe6-DH1uG37Dwvn_iL6jZKytYSk4aHhZkoPA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "blink-dev" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAARdPYc74oCQFO%3Dhnmt_%2BK-XgwbBX-U1gkLQ%2Bo10vKd4uTHTZw%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAARdPYc74oCQFO%3Dhnmt_%2BK-XgwbBX-U1gkLQ%2Bo10vKd4uTHTZw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "blink-dev" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAM0wra83-2od_jv2KkO8sn7gYkkvQLZiTjLX5wfLss0HCT9ZEg%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAM0wra83-2od_jv2KkO8sn7gYkkvQLZiTjLX5wfLss0HCT9ZEg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "blink-dev" group. 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