LGTM3

On Wed, Nov 6, 2024 at 11:05 AM Yoav Weiss (@Shopify) <
yoavwe...@chromium.org> wrote:

> LGTM2
>
> At the API owner meeting, Jeffrey explained to me that the issuers are
> controlled by the top-level, so I'm comfortable with the model (and the
> fact that ad providers won't fight for the 2 slots in ways that the site
> owner can't control).
>
> On Wednesday, November 6, 2024 at 4:15:09 PM UTC+1 Yoav Weiss wrote:
>
>> How likely are we to get multiple 3Ps on the page with each using its own
>> issuer?
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 6, 2024 at 1:19:49 AM UTC+1 Chris Harrelson wrote:
>>
>>> LGTM1
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 8:59 AM Ari Chivukula <aric...@chromium.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>    - In case of the user denies giving consent to X vendors / tech
>>>>>    via the CMP (Consent Management Platform), will the token be shared 
>>>>> cross
>>>>>    site if a wildcard is set anyway? The question also works with the 
>>>>> Global
>>>>>    privacy control
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this is unrelated to the work here as that's a question about
>>>> how any permissions policy would work with CMP/GPC, and not this specific
>>>> change.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>    - Is there a way to prevent any adtech to redeem the token to
>>>>>    display an ads anywhere outside? (But I think this question is already 
>>>>> in
>>>>>    the blink discussion)
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm having trouble parsing the question, but if the question is
>>>> whether adtech could redeem a token and then later take action based on
>>>> past redemption the answer is yes as long as it's the same context storage
>>>> wise (otherwise there wouldn't be a way to know a past redemption had
>>>> occured).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>    - Not related but somehow related, if the token is considered
>>>>>    First party tracking (Potential risk noted in the spec
>>>>>    
>>>>> <https://github.com/WICG/trust-token-api/blob/main/README.md#first-party-tracking-potential>)
>>>>>    then combined with the wildcard, you have a cross site tracking : How 
>>>>> to
>>>>>    prevent that?
>>>>>
>>>>> The first-party tracking potential you link to isn't about
>>>> third-parties accessing data but first-parties reading the redemption
>>>> records (this is only available in a top-level frame). The mitigation
>>>> described in the explainer still applies as this change does not impact the
>>>> availability of redemption records.
>>>>
>>>> ~ Ari Chivukula (Their/There/They're)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 7:04 AM Alexandre Nderagakura <
>>>> nderale...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Trying to understand this discussion, the Issue 990 design revue in
>>>>> w3ctag <https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/990> and the
>>>>> privacy side (I put a comment in the Issue 306
>>>>> <https://github.com/WICG/trust-token-api/pull/306#issuecomment-2449585140>
>>>>>  but
>>>>> perhaps talking is here is better) :
>>>>>
>>>>>    - In case of the user denies giving consent to X vendors / tech
>>>>>    via the CMP (Consent Management Platform), will the token be shared 
>>>>> cross
>>>>>    site if a wildcard is set anyway? The question also works with the 
>>>>> Global
>>>>>    privacy control
>>>>>    - Is there a way to prevent any adtech to redeem the token to
>>>>>    display an ads anywhere outside? (But I think this question is already 
>>>>> in
>>>>>    the blink discussion)
>>>>>    - Not related but somehow related, if the token is considered
>>>>>    First party tracking (Potential risk noted in the spec
>>>>>    
>>>>> <https://github.com/WICG/trust-token-api/blob/main/README.md#first-party-tracking-potential>)
>>>>>    then combined with the wildcard, you have a cross site tracking : How 
>>>>> to
>>>>>    prevent that?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, October 23, 2024 at 1:41:52 AM UTC+2 Jeffrey Yasskin
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This all makes sense to me. I don't personally have a good sense of
>>>>>> the privacy implications of calling this, but that's a question for the
>>>>>> privacy reviewers, not me. :) I'm torn on the question of when to make it
>>>>>> easier for sites to pick their issuers. The overall TAG sense
>>>>>> <https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/990> was that
>>>>>> because this makes the risk worse, you should add the easier mitigation
>>>>>> before shipping this change. But you have more experience with the
>>>>>> particular users of this API, so it could be that you're right to want to
>>>>>> wait for those users to complain. Is there a good issue for them to 
>>>>>> comment
>>>>>> on if they run into this problem, so you can notice and fix it quickly? I
>>>>>> think it'd be reasonable for the API owners to let this ship given a good
>>>>>> way to catch if it breaks anything.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The TAG also requested that you ask the Privacy WG to review the PST
>>>>>> API <https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/990>, to get
>>>>>> some non-Google validation that there aren't any privacy reasons to avoid
>>>>>> loosening the permission policy. I wouldn't expect the API owners to 
>>>>>> insist
>>>>>> that shipping wait for the Privacy WG.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the thread's information, I also got a request to help PSTs move
>>>>>> into a WG, as the launch process requires we do
>>>>>> <https://www.chromium.org/blink/launching-features/#new-feature-prepare-to-ship:~:text=If%20your%20specification%20is%20still%20in%20an%20incubation%20venue%20and%20not%20a%20working%20group%2C%20propose%20that%20the%20feature%20migrate%20to%20a%20working%20group.>,
>>>>>> and we're figuring out what shape that should take.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeffrey
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2024 at 11:37 AM Ari Chivukula <ari...@chromium.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Divided Jeffrey's email to separate questions verbatim (italic
>>>>>>> font). Our responses are below the question (bold font).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. https://github.com/WICG/trust-token-api/issues/106 says that
>>>>>>> adtech services want to redeem tokens without needing to get changes 
>>>>>>> made
>>>>>>> on the top-level site. The request seems to say that it's the adtech 
>>>>>>> origin
>>>>>>> that's directly called from the top-level site, but I think this change
>>>>>>> would allow redemptions anywhere down the tree of ad-related frames?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, this change would allow redemptions anywhere down the tree of
>>>>>>> frames regardless of origin unless explicit
>>>>>>> Permissions-Policies/allow-attributes block them (7).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   * Is there any risk of an ad redeeming tokens to interfere with
>>>>>>> other ads?
>>>>>>> https://github.com/WICG/trust-token-api?tab=readme-ov-file#private-state-token-exhaustion
>>>>>>> says only 1 token is redeemed per top-level page visit, which prevents 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> ad from deliberately using up the user's tokens, but it could still 
>>>>>>> race to
>>>>>>> prevent any other ad from knowing to trust the user.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, an ad redeeming a token may interfere with other origins'
>>>>>>> capabilities, as that redemption operation associates the issuer
>>>>>>> with the top level origin. And this counts towards the issuer limit. At
>>>>>>> most 2 issuers per top level origin is allowed. See step 4 in algorithm
>>>>>>> (1). Associating an issuer with the top level origin occupies a slot. 
>>>>>>> Once
>>>>>>> an ad redeems a token, only one issuer slot is left for all others in 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> same top level page.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Following a successful redemption, a redemption record (3) is
>>>>>>> stored, step 14 in algorithm (2). Redemption records are keyed by 
>>>>>>> (issuer,
>>>>>>> toplevel) origin pair. Any other origin in the page trying to redeem a
>>>>>>> token from the same issuer will get this cached redemption record.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Put another way, ads can’t ‘use up’ tokens that other ads on the
>>>>>>> page want to redeem, because those other ads would just re-use the same
>>>>>>> redemption record.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The explainer text is not in the best shape, created issue #307
>>>>>>> <https://github.com/WICG/trust-token-api/issues/307> to fix this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. This intent also expands which origins can _issue_ tokens, but I
>>>>>>> don't see the justification for that in the issue. What circumstances 
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, you are correct that the particular request cited here is
>>>>>>> pertaining to redemption operations. However, we are aware that many
>>>>>>> anti-fraud vendors are only embedded in 3p contexts, without necessarily
>>>>>>> having script access on the top-level site. Vendors who currently rely 
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> third-party cookies to establish and convey trust will need commensurate
>>>>>>> permissions on both redemption and issuance sides.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's some privacy impact from using this API. The tight default
>>>>>>> permission policy meant that top-level sites had to explicitly ask to
>>>>>>> expose their users to that privacy impact. Without it, shouldn't we 
>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>> lots of embedded resources to try to learn whatever information they can
>>>>>>> using this API? Why is that extra risk good for users overall?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We see this is a key tradeoff that many third-party cookie
>>>>>>> replacement APIs have to contend with. Given the widespread reliance on
>>>>>>> third-party cookies, it may not be practical to have anti-fraud vendors 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> work with every publisher/page to update their permission policy for the
>>>>>>> frames they have. Usefulness of the signal depends on its availability.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Further, the extra risk is actually very small: it's not going to
>>>>>>> affect users' privacy if anyone can learn that they've visited 2 
>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>> issuers and the 6 bits those issuers want to convey about them. In fact,
>>>>>>> the privacy risk is decreased by allowing 3p issuers to send that
>>>>>>> information, because it limits the inference about which sites a user 
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> actively visited.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note that the information embedded resources can learn are
>>>>>>> constrained by limiting information content stored in a token (4) and
>>>>>>> limiting the number of issuers per page (5). Additionally, PST issuers 
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> expected to register on GitHub
>>>>>>> <https://github.com/GoogleChrome/private-tokens/blob/main/PST-Registration.md>
>>>>>>> with some transparency on how they’re using the tokens.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't find the "the top-level origin could call hasPrivateToken up
>>>>>>> to twice before any other JavaScript is included" mitigation plausible:
>>>>>>> folks often don't control the order of their Javascript that closely. It
>>>>>>> seems more likely that sites would just explicitly set the permission
>>>>>>> policy to the origins they trust to pick their issuers: is there a 
>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>> that's not an adequate defense?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Permission policy can certainly be used, but it does not prevent
>>>>>>> third-party scripts embedded on the top-level context from picking their
>>>>>>> own issuers. The hasPrivateToken method overcomes that issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the general case, the JS API method mitigates most cases, but we
>>>>>>> have heard that folks would like a more explicit way of doing this, 
>>>>>>> either
>>>>>>> as a meta tag or header that can be sent by the server since the JS
>>>>>>> inclusion order and complexities with single page sites means that this 
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> a little fragile if it's not the earliest executed JS.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While we could add a new meta-tag/header feature to control issuance
>>>>>>> origins and then change the policy to default to *, given the low usage 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> (in our estimation) the low risk of changing the policy default we would
>>>>>>> prefer to pursue this change and follow up if requested by clients.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But then you've still just switched the burden from sites that want
>>>>>>> to delegate use of this API, to sites that need to defend against 
>>>>>>> hostile
>>>>>>> use of the API. Can you share any analysis of why you think attacks 
>>>>>>> will be
>>>>>>> much less likely than uses, or some other reason that it's good for 
>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>> and sites to switch that burden?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While it could be viewed as a “burden switch”, the fundamental
>>>>>>> privacy properties of PSTs mentioned above are such that the vast 
>>>>>>> majority
>>>>>>> of sites shouldn’t have cause to be concerned. For sites that are 
>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>> to prevent any cross site communication, the permission policy remains
>>>>>>> available.
>>>>>>> References
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1.
>>>>>>> https://wicg.github.io/trust-token-api/#append-private-state-token-redemption-request-headers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. https://wicg.github.io/trust-token-api/#handle-a-redeem-response
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. https://wicg.github.io/trust-token-api/#redemption-record
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4. https://wicg.github.io/trust-token-api/#limit-encoded-info
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5. https://wicg.github.io/trust-token-api/#per-issuer-limits
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6. https://github.com/WICG/trust-token-api/issues/106
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 7.
>>>>>>> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Permissions_Policy#allowlists
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 8. https://chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/3276
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ~ Ari Chivukula (Their/There/They're)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 4:51 PM Ari Chivukula <ari...@chromium.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> These are good questions! Sorry for the delay in replying, now that
>>>>>>>> TPAC has passed we should have something soon.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ~ Ari Chivukula (Their/There/They're)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 3:52 PM Jeffrey Yasskin <
>>>>>>>> jyas...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This Intent makes me realize that my mental model of Private State
>>>>>>>>> Tokens wasn't correct. I'd been thinking of users going to a site that
>>>>>>>>> trusts them, having that site issue some tokens, and then going to 
>>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>> site which would redeem a token to increase its trust. In both cases, 
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> sites could rely on third-parties to handle the tokens, but the sites 
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> intentional relationships with their service providers and so could 
>>>>>>>>> enable
>>>>>>>>> them in the top-level Permission Policy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This Intent implies that something else is going on, maybe
>>>>>>>>> multiple things.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. https://github.com/WICG/trust-token-api/issues/106 says that
>>>>>>>>> adtech services want to redeem tokens without needing to get changes 
>>>>>>>>> made
>>>>>>>>> on the top-level site. The request seems to say that it's the adtech 
>>>>>>>>> origin
>>>>>>>>> that's directly called from the top-level site, but I think this 
>>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>>> would allow redemptions anywhere down the tree of ad-related frames?
>>>>>>>>>   * Is there any risk of an ad redeeming tokens to interfere with
>>>>>>>>> other ads?
>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/WICG/trust-token-api?tab=readme-ov-file#private-state-token-exhaustion
>>>>>>>>> says only 1 token is redeemed per top-level page visit, which 
>>>>>>>>> prevents the
>>>>>>>>> ad from deliberately using up the user's tokens, but it could still 
>>>>>>>>> race to
>>>>>>>>> prevent any other ad from knowing to trust the user.
>>>>>>>>> 2. This intent also expands which origins can _issue_ tokens, but
>>>>>>>>> I don't see the justification for that in the issue. What 
>>>>>>>>> circumstances
>>>>>>>>> need that?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's some privacy impact from using this API. The tight default
>>>>>>>>> permission policy meant that top-level sites had to explicitly ask to
>>>>>>>>> expose their users to that privacy impact. Without it, shouldn't we 
>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>> lots of embedded resources to try to learn whatever information they 
>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> using this API? Why is that extra risk good for users overall?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't find the "the top-level origin could call hasPrivateToken
>>>>>>>>> up to twice before any other JavaScript is included" mitigation 
>>>>>>>>> plausible:
>>>>>>>>> folks often don't control the order of their Javascript that closely. 
>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>> seems more likely that sites would just explicitly set the permission
>>>>>>>>> policy to the origins they trust to pick their issuers: is there a 
>>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>>> that's not an adequate defense?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But then you've still just switched the burden from sites that
>>>>>>>>> want to delegate use of this API, to sites that need to defend against
>>>>>>>>> hostile use of the API. Can you share any analysis of why you think 
>>>>>>>>> attacks
>>>>>>>>> will be much less likely than uses, or some other reason that it's 
>>>>>>>>> good for
>>>>>>>>> users and sites to switch that burden?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Jeffrey
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 9, 2024 at 5:58 AM Ari Chivukula <ari...@chromium.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Contact emails
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ari...@chromium.org, kaust...@chromium.org, sva...@chromium.org,
>>>>>>>>>> ayk...@google.com, nic...@google.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Specification
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/WICG/trust-token-api/pull/306
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Summary
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Access to the Private State Token API
>>>>>>>>>> <https://wicg.github.io/trust-token-api/> is gated by Permissions
>>>>>>>>>> Policy <https://www.w3.org/TR/permissions-policy/> features. We
>>>>>>>>>> proposed to update the default allowlist
>>>>>>>>>> <https://w3c.github.io/webappsec-permissions-policy/#policy-controlled-feature-default-allowlist>
>>>>>>>>>> for both `private-state-token-issuance
>>>>>>>>>> <https://wicg.github.io/trust-token-api/#policy-controlled-feature-private-state-token-issuance>`
>>>>>>>>>> and `private-state-token-redemption
>>>>>>>>>> <https://wicg.github.io/trust-token-api/#policy-controlled-feature-private-state-token-redemption>`
>>>>>>>>>> features from self to * (wildcard).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Blink component
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Blink>StorageAccessAPI
>>>>>>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:Blink%3EStorageAccessAPI>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Motivation
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Private State Tokens API
>>>>>>>>>> <https://wicg.github.io/trust-token-api/> has received recurring
>>>>>>>>>> feedback from developers
>>>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/WICG/trust-token-api/issues/106> that the
>>>>>>>>>> current requirement to have first-party sites opt-in to allow 
>>>>>>>>>> third-parties
>>>>>>>>>> to invoke token issuance and redemption operations is not practical. 
>>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>>> is especially true for use cases where embeds don’t have first-party 
>>>>>>>>>> script
>>>>>>>>>> access to either execute the operations directly in first-party 
>>>>>>>>>> context, or
>>>>>>>>>> to enable the permission policies on the relevant frames. Current 
>>>>>>>>>> default
>>>>>>>>>> requires every site to update permission policy for iframes that 
>>>>>>>>>> embed
>>>>>>>>>> invalid traffic (IVT) detection scripts.Since scale and coverage are 
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> essence for IVT detection that rely on identifying outlier patterns; 
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> need for coordination with first-parties places a high cost for 
>>>>>>>>>> successful
>>>>>>>>>> adoption.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TAG review
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/990
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Compatibility
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This will not break any existing Private State Token API usage as
>>>>>>>>>> it only increases permissiveness. As usage increases, sites may need 
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> consider the need to mitigate issuer exhaustion
>>>>>>>>>> <https://wicg.github.io/trust-token-api/#issuer-exhaustion>.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Competing scripts might race to call hasPrivateToken to ensure
>>>>>>>>>> their preferred issuer enters the issuerAssociations
>>>>>>>>>> <https://wicg.github.io/trust-token-api/#issuerassociations> map
>>>>>>>>>> <https://infra.spec.whatwg.org/#ordered-map> before the issuer
>>>>>>>>>> of others given a limit of two per top-level origin
>>>>>>>>>> <https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/webappapis.html#concept-environment-top-level-origin>.
>>>>>>>>>> To control this process, the top-level origin
>>>>>>>>>> <https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/webappapis.html#concept-environment-top-level-origin>
>>>>>>>>>> could call hasPrivateToken up to twice before any other JavaScript is
>>>>>>>>>> included to ensure their preferred issuers are available.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Few enough websites
>>>>>>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/3277>
>>>>>>>>>> are using the API that we believe we can broaden the default 
>>>>>>>>>> permission set
>>>>>>>>>> and not open any concerning new avenues of attack.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Interoperability
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Gecko: Position Requested
>>>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/1066>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> WebKit: Position Requested
>>>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/WebKit/standards-positions/issues/391>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Web developers: Positive
>>>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/WICG/trust-token-api/issues/106>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Debuggability
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Storage written can be examined in devtools.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>>>> <https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:third_party/blink/web_tests/external/wpt/trust-tokens/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tracking bug
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://issues.chromium.org/353738486
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5205548434456576
>>>>>>>>>>
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