[uucdigest] Friday, February 7 2003 Volume 03 : Number 6096
_________________________________________________________________ | | Search the ARCHIVES: | http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] | | Visit Richard Nott's Ultimate BMW Database: | http://www.bmwdatabase.com | | For all available Digest commands including unsubscribe/subscribe, | visit the BMW UUC Digest page: http://www.uucdigest.com | | Send SUBMISSIONS to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Complaints? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you must. | Technical Problems? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] |__________________________________________________________________ In this BMW UUC Digest: Re: [uuc] E34 525iA post balance shimmy Re: [uuc] E36 sways, WTB M3 rear [uuc] E28 M5 FS $5000.00 Re: [uuc] E36 sways [uuc] bmw database for sale Re: [uuc] E36 sways Re: [uuc] E34 525iA post balance shimmy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:51:26 -0500 From: "Pat Donahue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] E34 525iA post balance shimmy or just try swapping the front and rear tires and see if anything changes. Geeeze From: "JS Nord" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Couple thoughts... > > If you have aftermarket rims it's possible they forgot to replace the > hubcentric rings (if you had them). > > Bad tire? > > Maybe start by having them rebalance the tires...maybe they made a mistake? > > Jeff > 90 535i > > From: "Beaudette, Roland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > The car has had an imbalance present since I picked it up last December, > > primarily felt during braking. It was quite disconcerting to brake at > > highway speeds. Replacing the thrust arms using 750 bushings really > helped > > as the vibration was reduced to minor pulsating during braking. The next > > step was to have the wheels balanced. I used a local Goodyear place that > > had treated my alloy wheels fairly well in the past. Now, following the > > balance, the car vibrates heavily under breaking again (like when I first > > picked it up). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 08:06:12 -0800 (PST) From: "Neil N." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] E36 sways, WTB M3 rear - --0-1162241605-1044633972=:65412 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Chris, If the information below is accurate (which I have no reason to doubt), then simply changing to the M3 rear bar (+1 mm compared to 325) wouldn't have as large an impact as going to the whole set. As Matt said, part of the equation is the ratio of F/R stiffness, and that's why the smaller (-1.5 mm compared to 325) front bar helps reduce M3 understeer in connection with the larger rear bar. I'd try to go for the whole M3 set. HINW (Hope I'm not wrong), Neil Chris Baker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Just to better my own understanding, is this correct? What I've been told, by what I thought were reputable sources, was that increasing the stiffness of the rear bar actually transferred more weight to the front inside tire, increasing grip there and reducing understeer. I know I've seen Gary comment on this before and thought his comments were along the same lines - is that right Gary? Regardless of the theory, It sounds like there is something to be gained from an M3 bar. I definitely can't get away with $350-$400 for a new aftermarket bar set, so is there any reason I shouldn't just try an M3 rear bar? Anybody got a used 96+ M3 rear bar they want to sell? Thanks, Chris B. > Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:43:57 -0500 > From: "Matt Tremmel" > Subject: Re: [uuc] E36 sways > > Chris > > 95 M3 sway (22.5) in the front and 95 M3 sway in the > rear (19) will probably get you all the oversteer you want > the cheapest. > > Based on stock springs, you get this (F/R distribution of > total stiffness) > > M3 (22.5/19) Stock (24/18) > Front stiffness 44% 55% > Rear Stiffness 56% 45% > > More rear stiffness means more weight transfer to the > rear, thus exceeding the grip of the rear tires sooner > for a given lateral load. > - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now - --0-1162241605-1044633972=:65412 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <P>Chris, <P>If the information below is accurate (which I have no reason to doubt), then simply changing to the M3 rear bar (+1 mm compared to 325) wouldn't have as large an impact as going to the whole set. As Matt said, part of the equation is the ratio of F/R stiffness, and that's why the smaller (-1.5 mm compared to 325) front bar helps reduce M3 understeer in connection with the larger rear bar. I'd try to go for the whole M3 set. <P>HINW (Hope I'm not wrong), <P>Neil <P> <B><I>Chris Baker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Just to better my own understanding, is this correct? What I've been<BR>told, by what I thought were reputable sources, was that increasing the<BR>stiffness of the rear bar actually transferred more weight to the front<BR>inside tire, increasing grip there and reducing understeer. I know I've<BR>seen Gary comment on this before and thought his comments were along the<BR>same lines - is that right Gary?<BR><BR>Regardless of the theory, It sounds like there is something to be gained<BR>from an M3 bar. I definitely can't get away with $350-$400 for a new<BR>aftermarket bar set, so is there any reason I shouldn't just try an M3<BR>rear bar?<BR><BR>Anybody got a used 96+ M3 rear bar they want to sell?<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>Chris B.<BR><BR>> Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:43:57 -0500<BR>> From: "Matt Tremmel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]><BR>> Subject: Re: [uuc] E36 sways<BR>><BR>> Chris<BR>&! gt;<BR>> 95 M3 sway (22.5) in the front and 95 M3 sway in the<BR>> rear (19) will probably get you all the oversteer you want<BR>> the cheapest.<BR>><BR>> Based on stock springs, you get this (F/R distribution of<BR>> total stiffness)<BR>><BR>> M3 (22.5/19) Stock (24/18)<BR>> Front stiffness 44% 55%<BR>> Rear Stiffness 56% 45%<BR>><BR>> More rear stiffness means more weight transfer to the<BR>> rear, thus exceeding the grip of the rear tires sooner<BR>> for a given lateral load.<BR>><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><p><br><hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br> <a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com";>Yahoo! Mail Plus</a> - Powerful. Affordable. <a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com";>Sign up now</a> - --0-1162241605-1044633972=:65412-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 08:50:24 -0800 From: "Truxtun Jayne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] E28 M5 FS $5000.00 This car lives in north Seattle, WA. Regrettably, I have decided to sell my E28 M5 for $5000.00. This car was in excellent condition with 185k miles. It was recently hit from behind and pushed into another car. It has suffered unibody damage resulting in some wrinkle-age over the right rear wheel and minor difficulty closing the rear door. There is a cracked tail lens and some body damage to the rear of the car. The front bumper is slightly tweaked. This car still drives straight and FAST! From a distance the car looks fine. I have owned & maintained the car for 6 years, never tracked, raced or smoked. Includes Conforti chip, track pipe, K&N filter, outdoor car cover and many other parts. I have been driving the car 4 days per week since Dec 2002. (prior to that it was used very seldom). It has always been garaged. Please contact me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] for further info and pics. end _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:08:22 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [uuc] E36 sways James, I thought the original poster's intent was to reduce understeer. Going to a larger front bar and NOT matching it with a larger rear bar will only increase understeer, assuming the same springs and shocks with either bar setup. Or am I mixing up the questions? In E30s, it is pretty common for owners to buy two sets of sway bars to get the optimal combo, a front bar from one supplier and a rear bar from another. That may also be the case with E36s, but I have no personal experience with that chassis. Scott Miller GGC BMW CCA 1990 325i, still needs aftermarket bars >Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:17:34 -0500 >From: "James Clay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [uuc] E36 sways > >I think the hot setup is UUC bars, Bilstein M3 shocks, and a Ground Control >coilover setup. We spec out the springs to get all of the understeer out >and you can choose ride quality. If you already have the 325 F struts, then >RD bars are probably the way to go for a very stiff front bar. By the way, >no one says you have to install the bigger rear just b/c you have it. >Stiffer front and stock rear works well too.... > >James > >James Clay >http://www.bimmerworld.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 12:11:12 -0500 From: "Michael Wendell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] bmw database for sale just wanted to let the list know that some sleazeball has collected a bunch of bmw-related email addresses and is trying to sell them. wednesday i got an email from jeff adams of bmwshopper.com who is trying to sell a database of 5500 email addresses for $1500. assuming these email addresses were collected from their site, this flies in the face of their privacy policy, which states: Our Guiding Policy: We do not sell or rent your personally identifiable information for marketing purposes. Our goal is to practice industry best efforts with respect to your privacy. yeah, whatever. they may have gotten the list of emails by scraping things like the UUC digest or the old Welty list. that's pretty easy to do and it means that if you've ever posted to one of these lists you might be in this guy's database. anyway, just letting you guys know if you don't already. m. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 12:29:06 -0500 From: "James Clay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] E36 sways Yeah, I caught that this AM. Long day yesterday... Here is the deal - on an E36, I would go with the swaybar setup I recommended - they really do work better with a big front bar and small rear. But, you are right, that isn't going to help their particular problem. I guess it would be upgraded R bar with a stock F. This will help with the right balance but is not optimum. I will skip the rant about swaybars usually being a crutch for a poorly tuned suspension that normally comes in about now... James Clay http://www.bimmerworld.com Engineered BMW Performance 540.639.9648 - ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [uuc] E36 sways > James, I thought the original poster's intent was to reduce understeer. > Going to a larger front bar and NOT matching it with a larger rear bar will > only increase understeer, assuming the same springs and shocks with either > bar setup. Or am I mixing up the questions? > > In E30s, it is pretty common for owners to buy two sets of sway bars to get > the optimal combo, a front bar from one supplier and a rear bar from > another. That may also be the case with E36s, but I have no personal > experience with that chassis. > > Scott Miller > GGC BMW CCA > 1990 325i, still needs aftermarket bars > > >Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:17:34 -0500 > >From: "James Clay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Subject: Re: [uuc] E36 sways > > > >I think the hot setup is UUC bars, Bilstein M3 shocks, and a Ground > Control > >coilover setup. We spec out the springs to get all of the understeer out > >and you can choose ride quality. If you already have the 325 F struts, > then > >RD bars are probably the way to go for a very stiff front bar. By the > way, > >no one says you have to install the bigger rear just b/c you have it. > >Stiffer front and stock rear works well too.... > > > >James > > > >James Clay > >http://www.bimmerworld.com > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 13:21:51 -0500 From: Don Eilenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] E34 525iA post balance shimmy Jeff answered Roland, and I'll add an idea.. >Couple thoughts... > >If you have aftermarket rims it's possible they forgot to replace the >hubcentric rings (if you had them). > >Bad tire? > >Maybe start by having them rebalance the tires...maybe they made a mistake? > >Jeff >90 535i > >- ----- Original Message ----- > > The car has had an imbalance present since I picked it up last December, > > primarily felt during braking. It was quite disconcerting to brake at > > highway speeds. Replacing the thrust arms using 750 bushings really >helped > > as the vibration was reduced to minor pulsating during braking. The next > > step was to have the wheels balanced. I used a local Goodyear place that > > had treated my alloy wheels fairly well in the past. Now, following the > > balance, the car vibrates heavily under breaking again (like when I first > > picked it up). > > > > Have it rebalanced? Suggestions are appreciated. The next item to >replace > > would be the lower arms (unless someone has a better idea). > > > > Cheers, > > > > Roland One other idea - did they use an impact wrench to refasten the wheels when they put them back on? Amazing how many otherwise good places do this. The bolts should be sequentially torqued, criss-cross pattern, ie: start at 40 ft/lbs - go criss-cross, go to 60 ft/lbs, ditto.. go to final torque and do the same thing. A good shop will have 'torque sticks' - these are better than a raw impact gun, but not as good as hand torquing.. and they should use progressive ranges of these while tightening in a criss-cross pattern. Over-torquing and not doing it criss-cross and sequentially can cause the rotors to warp or offset - giving the symptoms you describe. It also sounds like you have a hard spot or warp in at least one rotor - and all the balancing in the world isn't going to help this. New rotors will.. and the lower arms probably are about due now. 5 series (even the E39) are VERY sensitive to any looseness in the front end, and the cumulative effect of multiple parts aging can push it over the shimmy point. What you're describing is more like a brake problem (since it happens when braking), but again - looseness can make it feel worse. Replacing one component (the top arm bushings) will lessen the effect, but the problem still remains - just less noticeable. Cures are: 1. new rotors (and pads) - I'd suggest BMW OE equipment make sure the mating surface to the hubs is spotless.. 2. replace any worn front end parts 3. correct torquing of the rims Do these three things - and I'll bet'cha a beer the problem goes away for good. FWIW - I won't have my wheels balanced unless: i. They let me stand there and watch - insurance regs be damned.. what is acceptable when you're in the waiting area isn't as acceptable while you're watching. ii. They hand torque when done I have an excellent big tire shop around the corner from me who does both - and has an older guy who does the balance who knows exactly what he's doing. The machine is just a guide.. experience really counts. HTH, Don Eilenberger, Spring Lk Hts, NJ JMP#1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] NJ Shore BMW Riders web page: http://www.njsbmwr.org/ Moderator BMW E39 Enthusiast Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bmwe39 ==================================================================== "Argue with an idiot and he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience" - Dilbert ==================================================================== ------------------------------ End of [uucdigest] V3 #6096 *************************** | | In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. |________________________________________ | Please visit these UUC-approved BMW parts vendors/service providers: | (listed alphabetically) | | Autoscope-Motorsports - http://www.autoscope-motorsports.com | |==================================================== | | Koala MotorSport . BMW technical information, special tool sales/rental | http://www.koalamotorsport.com | |==================================================== | | Taylor BMW - http://www.taylorbmw.com - Doc Bimmer! | UUC Motorwerks . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com |__________________________________________
