[uucdigest] Thursday, June 19 2003 Volume 03 : Number 6483
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Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] |__________________________________________________________________ In this BMW UUC Digest: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 [uuc] FS on Ebay 95 M3 Instrument cluster RE: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 06:56:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Couvillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 What about when you go into a corner while braking? The second you turn the wheel. . . ZIP!! You'll pull a Whaletail 911 Turbo and be facing the other way. Brad "Shifty" Couvillon '85 Euro 535i <-- e34 M5 brakes eventually www.fatdaddybmw.com - --- Michael McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > the idea is indeed to move bias to the front. > another aproach would be > bigger calipers on the front, complemented by much > bigger calipers on the > rear. current brake bias is around 70% front. I'm > looking for more along the > lines of 65% to 63% front. I'm not looking to move > the brakes ALL to the > rear, but currently the rear brakes don't do much of > anything ... especially > when braking hard. > > -Michael McCoy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:01:28 -0700 From: "JS Nord" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 ..then...wouldnt' an approach like this work? - - Upgrade the brakes if needed so you have the raw stopping power (brake torque) you require - - Select a front / rear caliper ratio that has an approximate portionality close to your target - - Adjust the final settings with a bias valve Question: Can you install an adjustable bias valve in an ABS system? Finally, for what it's worth (serious track junkies poo poo away).. I have put M5 front calipers (non-nurburgring) on my 90 535i. Combined with SS lines and some cooling ducts, the setup works quite well on lapping days. No, they are not *huge* brakes but they have minimal fade, better hauldown, and generally survive lapping days *much* better than the stock setup. It's hard for me to image you putting more heat into your brakes during steet driving than I can during a 30 minute lapping session. No problems with regular front or rear lockups with this simple mod. Jeff 90 535i PS - it's nice to some some E34 dialog! :) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 3:59 AM Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 > the idea is indeed to move bias to the front. another aproach would be > bigger calipers on the front, complemented by much bigger calipers on the > rear. current brake bias is around 70% front. I'm looking for more along the > lines of 65% to 63% front. I'm not looking to move the brakes ALL to the > rear, but currently the rear brakes don't do much of anything ... especially > when braking hard. > > -Michael McCoy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "marco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:15 AM > Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 > > > > Michael, > > > > Do I understand what you're saying correctly? Do you want to put > > smaller calipers in the front to move brake bias to the rear? > > > > I also think that if you really want to as you write > > > > " I'm really looking for a system that is truly balanced. as in the > > limit of adhesion in braking is attained at all 4 wheels at the same > time." > > > > I hope you're not forgetting that weight transfers forward as you jump > > on the binders, so by making your bias move more to the rear without > > addressing forward weight transfer you're going to lock the rears up > > sooner and make the car pretty loopy. Or are you also putting some > > really fast computer controlled bias valve that compensates for the > > weight transfer. > > > > I'm obviously a bit puzzled as to what you're trying to do. > > > > BTW you can buy a cockpit adjustable brake bias valve that allows you to > > play with bias to your hearts content. Just don't test it on the highway. > > > > Marco > > > > Michael McCoy wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Rob Levinson * UUC Motorwerks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:26 PM > > > Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 > > > > > > > > > > > >>The E23 calipers are not compatible with the E34. > > >> > > > > > > > > > hmm. now you tell me. :oP > > > they have the same pistons as the M5/M6 so I was hoping that maybe they > were > > > just a cheaper version made by ATE. > > > they are quite small. so that would definately have served my purpose in > > > moving lots of the brake bias to the rear. > > > oh well. they are on their way... less than $16 including shipping. > maybe > > > I'll find a place for them to sit and look pretty. > > > > > > > > >>As posted previously, almost your entire menu of BMW factory-sourced > > > > > > options > > > > > >>is found right here: > > >> > > >>http://www.bmwe34.net/e34main/upgrade/brakes.htm > > >> > > >>(There's a rare E32 tiny 4-piston setup I left out of the list). > > >> > > >>How crazy do you want to go with the brakes? In about a week or two, > UUC > > >>will have the 355mm 4-piston front and 328mm 4-piston rear available for > > > > > > the > > > > > >>E34. They fit under 17" wheels and will be very reasonably priced for > > > > > > this > > > > > >>level of braking capability. > > >> > > > > > > > > > you done the math yet on brake balance/bias/dynamics yet? and if so, you > > > care to share those numbers? > > > > > > I'm really looking for a system that is truly balanced. as in the limit > of > > > adhesion in braking is attained at all 4 wheels at the same time. also, > for > > > a balanced braking system, the thermal load at all 4 corners would be > > > similar. as in the % utilization of the heat sink capacity is equal > front to > > > rear, so all the brakes would overheat at the same time. so not cooking > the > > > fronts and the rears only warm to hot (which is what the car does now). > > > > > > also, why such big rotors in the front? seems a bit excessive. 330mm was > > > more than enough for most LMP cars (granted they are only 1500lbs, but > they > > > do more repetetive stopping from higher speeds than a 5 will ever see.) > > > > > > > > >>Big brakes are not an option on the E34 - they are a _requirement_. > I've > > >>had 5-series for quite a few years now, and have experienced virtually > > > > > > every > > > > > >>setup listed on the BMWE34.net website. Frankly, all of the factory > parts > > >>(even the Nurburgring calipers) are insufficient, especially if you're > > >>building a big-power car. > > >> > > > > > > > > > i don't know if bigger is always better. granted the E34 needs better > > > brakes, but I think sizing the calipers to match the balance and maximum > > > grip of the car is best. and then size the rotor to accomodate the heat > > > characteristics of the system. > > > > > > i've been trying to work the math backwards, but keep finding things > wrong > > > with my approach. I want the math to be perfect before I figure out what > > > calipers/rotors match the needs. the trial and error methodology would > be an > > > expensive way to approach this problem. > > > > > > -Michael McCoy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>- Rob > > >> > > >> > > >>----- Original Message ----- > > >>From: "Michael McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >>Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>ok, so those are the fronts. what about the rears? > > >>> > > >>>I'm trying to get rid of the excessive front bias. (getting rid of heat > > >>>faster too would also be a plus.) > > >>> > > >>>what can people tell me about the E23 7 series front brakes? they look > > >> > > > to > > > > > >>be > > >> > > >>>very similar to the front brakes on the M5/M6 of the early 80's. they > > >> > > > use > > > > > >>>the same rebuilt kit... but don't have the same caliper PN and such. > > >>>any info on rotor size and the likes? > > >>> > > >>>thanks > > >>> > > >>>-Michael McCoy > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 09:42:26 -0500 From: "Jamie Howton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] FS on Ebay 95 M3 Instrument cluster TIA for the bandwidth, I have the following instrument cluster for sale on Ebay: http://tinyurl.com/eq16 Regards Jamie Howton 2002 330i 5 Spd Steel Blue Metallic SP 1995 M3 5 Spd Arctic Silver 1979 Porsche 928 5 Speed Opalmetallic ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 10:52:39 -0400 From: "Robinson, Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 For a rally car this might be desireable....... I would think your best bet is to get a biasing valve. I would think the clever engineers at BMW spec'ed the brake bias for your car to optimize emergency stopping power in stock form (at least this is my experience with E30's). You have changed the car. Now you would need to determine what the appropriate bias is, either from number-crunching (looooong) or empirical means (which can be dangerous). BMW has engineered the brakes to work harder in the front for the same reason they send the power to the back. Apply work through the most loaded axle. This is going to be the axle with the most grip & will be best able to apply this work to the ground. If the brake bias is 70% to the front in your 5, I would assume that under full braking (with a fully loaded car), a stock 525 must have just under 70% of the weight on the front axle. Therein lies the problem. There are sooooo many variables. You should first determine what your goals are. Is the car only street driven? If so, the factory brakes may be the safest for an emergency stop (maybe even 2-3 in a row). Track driven? Ok, now you give up a few feet in emergency stopping for fade-resistant big brakes. But you've also modified the car. Maybe your suspension is as good or better than an E34 M5. Maybe the M5's braking system bias is more like 60-65% front???? But, now you need the ENTIRE system from the M5 to make it work right. Plus that car was applying the work through a better contact patch, maybe? Maybe your car is lighter? What's going to happen with the ABS when you do this? I wouldn't kill yourself mentally or financially (and especially not physically) trying to find a custom solution when it might already be out there. Hope all this drivel helps some, Lee > -----Original Message----- > From: Brad Couvillon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:57 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 > > > What about when you go into a corner while braking? > The second you turn the wheel. . . > > ZIP!! You'll pull a Whaletail 911 Turbo and be facing > the other way. > > Brad "Shifty" Couvillon > '85 Euro 535i <-- e34 M5 brakes eventually > www.fatdaddybmw.com > > > > > --- Michael McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > the idea is indeed to move bias to the front. > > another aproach would be > > bigger calipers on the front, complemented by much > > bigger calipers on the > > rear. current brake bias is around 70% front. I'm > > looking for more along the > > lines of 65% to 63% front. I'm not looking to move > > the brakes ALL to the > > rear, but currently the rear brakes don't do much of > > anything ... especially > > when braking hard. > > > > -Michael McCoy > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 11:11:55 -0400 From: "Michael McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 911's do this due to their heavy ass end. usually when they lift mid corner. pendulum effect from having the major mass of the car behind the rear wheels. My E34 is still balanced weight wise. turbo is under the hood, but a larger-than-stock battery was installed under the back seat when I relocated it from under the hood. weight has been moved accordingly. as for instability due to heavily rear biased brakes, go look at a go cart. (non-shifter cart, cause shifter carts are allowed brakes at 4 wheels.) regular racing carts, the stock classes (usually with stock 5hp briggs motors), the restricted classes (*5hp briggs* running methanol), the modified classes (*5hp briggs* somehow making closer to 20 or 25 hp?), even 80cc 2 stroke non-gearbox carts have ONLY a rear brake. 100% brake bias to the rear. not too problematic. yes you could stop faster with brakes on all 4 corners, but for one thats illegal in these classes, and also this was to illustrate that heavy rear bias is indeed controllable. also, I'm not going for an extreme bias like this, just more rearward. - -Michael McCoy - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Couvillon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 > What about when you go into a corner while braking? > The second you turn the wheel. . . > > ZIP!! You'll pull a Whaletail 911 Turbo and be facing > the other way. > > Brad "Shifty" Couvillon > '85 Euro 535i <-- e34 M5 brakes eventually > www.fatdaddybmw.com > > > > > --- Michael McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > the idea is indeed to move bias to the front. > > another aproach would be > > bigger calipers on the front, complemented by much > > bigger calipers on the > > rear. current brake bias is around 70% front. I'm > > looking for more along the > > lines of 65% to 63% front. I'm not looking to move > > the brakes ALL to the > > rear, but currently the rear brakes don't do much of > > anything ... especially > > when braking hard. > > > > -Michael McCoy > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of [uucdigest] V3 #6483 *************************** | | In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. |________________________________________ | Please visit these UUC-approved BMW parts vendors/service providers: | (listed alphabetically) | | Autoscope-Motorsports - http://www.autoscope-motorsports.com | |==================================================== | | Koala MotorSport . BMW technical information, special tool sales/rental | http://www.koalamotorsport.com | |==================================================== | | Taylor BMW - http://www.taylorbmw.com - Doc Bimmer! | |==================================================== | Turner Motorsport Inc . 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