[uucdigest] Thursday, July 3 2003 Volume 03 : Number 6538
_________________________________________________________________ | | Search the ARCHIVES: | http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Visit Richard Nott's Ultimate BMW Database: | http://www.bmwdatabase.com | | For all available Digest commands including unsubscribe/subscribe, | visit the BMW UUC Digest page: http://www.uucdigest.com | | Send SUBMISSIONS to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Complaints? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you must. | Technical Problems? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] |__________________________________________________________________ In this BMW UUC Digest: [uuc] Re: Be safe this summer! RE: [uuc] Re: Change of plans...Maybe a new M3... RE: [uuc] Re: E55 v M5, M3 v S4, etc RE: [uuc] Allstate and Drivers Schools Re: [uuc] Re: Be safe this summer! [uuc] Re: Change of plans...Maybe a new M3... [uuc] Re: [uucdigest] Ellipsoids -> Hellas? (e34) [uuc] Re: insurance Re: [uuc] Ellipsoids -> Hellas? Re: [uuc] Re: Change of plans...Maybe a new M3... [uuc] Re: Change of plans...Maybe a new M3... [uuc] Re: E55 v M5, M3 v S4, etc RE: [uuc] Re: Change of plans...Maybe a new M3... Re: [uuc] Re: Change of plans...Maybe a new M3... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 07:24:38 -0500 From: Clarence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: Be safe this summer! Well, gee, thanks, Willie! Visions of these pictures will be haunting me for the next week and certainly the first session at Blackhawk next Friday. Hope to see you there. Clarence West Bend, WI Willie Yeo wrote: >Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 17:04:00 -0700 (PDT) >From: willie yeo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: [uuc] Be safe this summer! > >http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1889571#post1889571 > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 08:34:41 -0400 From: "Robinson, Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] Re: Change of plans...Maybe a new M3... Cadillac used the same ad thingy with the STS......read the fine print. They're comparing their sport models vs. the base 540i. Big wheels & tires & calibrated suspension make the difference. I did a ride & drive with Caddy about 3 years ago. The STS was the full sport package with 17" Michelin MXXX3's (which weren't even available on the car). The A8, E430, & 540i were all base model cars with skinny 16" tires. The MB even nearly spun because the ABS didn't work right. GM sold a lot of Caddys to unknowning folks that day. Me, I drifted the 540i all the way through the autocross....try that in the supposedly superior FWD (so their marketing guys asserted) Caddy. Lee > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason Knight [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 6:51 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [uuc] Re: Change of plans...Maybe a new M3... > > > Not to get way-way off subject, but this reminds me of > a Lincoln LS add on TV that asserts that the LS beats > the 540 in various handling categories. I was > incredulous about this, until a friend pointed out > that the e39 5er is much older than the latest LS. > With the e60 becoming available, I imagine that the 5 > will regain its supremacy. > > It's all about timing. > > Jason > --- Neil Deshpande <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Neil: > > > > Probably from the 90-deg V6 with balance shafts > > instead of the 'proper' 60-deg V6. I recall running > > that motor in a dyno cell and being able to tell it > > was running vs another domestic V6 from just the > > coarseness you describe all the way in my office at > > the other end of the building. > > > > Almost all the MBZs I've driven have seemed > > underpowered and heavy compared to Bimmers. At > > lunchtime today a friend was telling me that the E55 > > AMG would blow away the M5 is _all_ categories > > including slalom. I was surprised until I realized > > he > > meant the NEW E55, not the last gen. I expect the > > NEW > > M5 V10 will blow it away. > > > > I do like the direction of the MBZ styling and that > > is > > pretty important to me. I think I've bought my last > > BMW for some time unless I get a good deal on an M > > coupe. > > > > Neil Deshpande > > > > *** > > > > Neil Maller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > The 3.2 litre V-6 just isn't up to the job. It > > wheezes > > and roars, but doesn't accomplish much. There's also > > some coarseness to it in the important > > 2500 to 3500 cruising rpm range. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 08:40:32 -0400 From: "Robinson, Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] Re: E55 v M5, M3 v S4, etc > Torque is overrated. Gearing will trade rpm and make all the > torque you > need. Power is the important parameter as it already > incorporates torque > and rpm. Not peak power, but overall power under the curve power. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!! The engineering master has spoken, all bow down beneath..... > > Gary Derian Lee->much less of an engineering anything...... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 08:43:29 -0400 From: "Robinson, Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] Allstate and Drivers Schools Allstate doesn't cover things that happen on the street, what makes you think they'll cover anything on the track? Lee > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas G. Clark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 11:51 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [uuc] Allstate and Drivers Schools > > > Hi, > > Has anyone checked with Allstate about coverage > when involved in an on-track incident at a BMW CCA > drivers school? Do I need to find a different carrier? > > Tom > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 07:45:49 -0500 From: "Thomas G. Clark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Re: Be safe this summer! I know how you feel Clarence. Last year I stopped in to see my 90+ year old mother while on the way to a Drivers School at Gingerman, (where these pictures come from by the way), and she asked me, "How stupid would you feel if you were in an accident this weekend and lost both your legs?" I had to laugh about it but I thought about it every time I went on track that weekend... Tom Iowa City P.S. I hate having to miss Octoberfast this year due to Ofest! At 07:24 AM 7/3/2003 -0500, Clarence wrote: >Well, gee, thanks, Willie! Visions of these pictures will be haunting me for the >next >week and certainly the first session at Blackhawk next Friday. Hope to see you >there. > >Clarence >West Bend, WI > >Willie Yeo wrote: > >>Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 17:04:00 -0700 (PDT) >>From: willie yeo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Subject: [uuc] Be safe this summer! >> >>http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1889571#post1889571 >> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 05:55:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Deshpande <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: Change of plans...Maybe a new M3... Kevin: I recall it being an STS vs a 540i. The STS had stiffer sway bars, better tires, etc., IIRC. Neil Deshpande *** "KKiely" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Wasn't that a Cadd of Lack running with some Z rated tires against a 5er with some rock hard touring tires or some such? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 09:04:58 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [uuc] Re: [uucdigest] Ellipsoids -> Hellas? (e34) Karl, NO this will not work. The e34 headlight assembly is totally FUBAR. The only good solution, albeit illegal is to install the Euro package (@ $300+). Cheers, Steve <<I'm considering the purchase of an e34. I currently have an e28 equipped with Hella headlamps. Will the Hellas drop into the Ellipsoid buckets? If not, how 'bout just the H1 High beams? Or are the ellipsoid lights good enough that I should just sell the Hellas with the e28? Thanks folks>> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 06:12:15 -0700 (PDT) From: david kroth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: insurance > I waited until I had already > decided to drop my coverage before asking. Never drop an insurance policy until you have another one in force to replace it. This is even more important for life/health insurance than for auto insurance. 'Course, if they drop you, you are SOL. ===== David Kroth [EMAIL PROTECTED] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:02:56 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Ellipsoids -> Hellas? Ellipsoids aren't that good, but the Hella lamps wont fit the E34. The E34 does not use headlight buckets, the lights have the brackets built into them. Gary Derian > I'm considering the purchase of an e34. I currently have an e28 equipped > with Hella headlamps. Will the Hellas drop into the Ellipsoid buckets? If > not, how 'bout just the H1 High beams? > > Or are the ellipsoid lights good enough that I should just sell the Hellas > with the e28? > > Thanks folks > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:25:34 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Re: Change of plans...Maybe a new M3... A 6 cyl engine fires every 120 degrees of crankshaft rotation. With 4 main bearings and an even firing order a 60 deg V-6 has its crankpins offset 60 deg. A 90 deg V-6 has 30 deg offset crankpins. A 120 deg V-6 needs no crankpin offset. All of these configurations have some vibration that needs balance shaft(s) to remove. In line and flat 6s are inherently well balanced. Odd-fire V-6s can be built, and work very well, if low rpm smoothness does not have high priority. There are advantages and disadvantages for a V-6 compared to an in-line 6. Gary Derian > Gary: > > Can you explain this further? The way I understand > it, you have to splay the conrods 30-deg in a 90-deg, > 0-120-240 crank V6 to get it to the level of a 60-deg > V6. Perhaps MBZ has done this, but it may not have as > the difference in vibration was quite apparent when I > was involved in the benchmarking. > > Also, my understanding is that a 0-120-240 crank V6 > should really be 120-deg for best possible balance and > that even the 60-deg is a compromise. I should > probably take the time to do the calcs and reason it > out for myself. <grin>. > > As you know, the V6 vibration is higher due to the > configuration, but the torsional stiffness of the more > compact block also reduces vibration and noise of > other types in addition to other advantages like > tighter bearing clearances which ultimately reduce > noise and such though those have been achieved by > lowering the neutral axis of an engine block beam > structure to be in line with the crank axis by adding > mass to the structural oil pan. DB7 V12 concept? > > Neil Deshpande > > *** > > "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > A V-6 has a rotating couple imbalance whether it is a > 60 deg or 90 deg block. Both have offset journal > crankshafts to obtain an even firing order. In > general a V-6 is smaller and lighter than in in-line 6 > but the tradeoff is vibration. > > The best way to balance a V-6 is to add two pistons. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 08:46:17 -0500 From: Neil Maller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: Change of plans...Maybe a new M3... on 7/2/03 7:54 PM, "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The best way to balance a V-6 is to add two pistons. I beg to disagree: the best way is to add another 6 pistons! Gary later adds: > Yeh. Well my preference would be to put them all in a straight line. OK then, that's compatible. A straight 6 is the next nicest thing to a V12. Neil 96 M3 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 08:56:15 -0500 From: Neil Maller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: E55 v M5, M3 v S4, etc on 7/2/03 7:54 PM, ben keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > it already made sense for the E46 from a weight (V8 is lighter) > balance (V8 is more compact, can be mounted farther back > in the chassis) and driveability (more torque, less need to rev > the balls off of it) but they decided that the heritage of the > ///M brand needed the 6. forgetting of course that the original > M3 was a 4 :-) > >> Heck, I bet there are some tuner M3s running around in Europe >> with the 400 hp 5.0 liter V-8 stuffed into it. > > something of a sucker bet if you could get anyone to take it. > there have been E46's with the M5 motor for sale in Europe > from months after the M4 came out. I'm pretty certain you could > get one here if you wanted to spend the money. As technically interesting as the E46 M3 may be, I think BMW missed one of the all time good bets in not putting the V8 into the E46. Although the usual tuner suspects have done so, it's said to be very difficult, requiring both chassis sheet metal modification and major rework of the steering. (The steering column wants to go right through one of the exhaust manifolds.) If BMW doesn't make provision for the V8 in the next 3 series I'll know they're really boneheads. Neil 96 M3 - pretty nice inline 6 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:28:04 -0400 From: "Rob Levinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] Re: Change of plans...Maybe a new M3... - ---- Original Message ---- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: RE: [uuc] Re: Change of plans...Maybe a new M3... >OK then, that's compatible. A straight 6 is the next nicest thing to >a V12. > >Neil >96 M3 Or back to your earlier point, a straight six is nicest next to another straight six, preferably with a shared crank. That works. - - Rob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:12:47 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Re: Change of plans...Maybe a new M3... That was a different Gary, but OK. There is little to justify more than 8 cylinders in a passenger car. Sure 12 is nice and smooth, but it is also large and heavy. For BMWs, the 12 only has 2 valves per cyl, unless you have a 760iL, McLaren F1 or one of the LMR engines. 4 valves per cylinder in the V-8 has much better combustion characteristics. The downside to a BMW V-8 is the extra width. A twin turbo V-8 E30 is just about right. 800 hp would be easy to make. Gary Derian > on 7/2/03 7:54 PM, "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > The best way to balance a V-6 is to add two pistons. > > I beg to disagree: the best way is to add another 6 pistons! > > Gary later adds: > > Yeh. Well my preference would be to put them all in a straight line. > > OK then, that's compatible. A straight 6 is the next nicest thing to a V12. > > Neil > 96 M3 > ------------------------------ End of [uucdigest] V3 #6538 *************************** | | In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. |________________________________________ | Please visit these UUC-approved BMW parts vendors/service providers: | (listed alphabetically) | | Autoscope-Motorsports - http://www.autoscope-motorsports.com | |==================================================== | | Koala MotorSport . BMW technical information, special tool sales/rental | http://www.koalamotorsport.com | |==================================================== | | Taylor BMW - http://www.taylorbmw.com - Doc Bimmer! | |==================================================== | Turner Motorsport Inc . 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