[uucdigest] Thursday, August 28 2003 Volume 03 : Number 6705
_________________________________________________________________ | | Search the ARCHIVES: | http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Visit Richard Nott's Ultimate BMW Database: | http://www.bmwdatabase.com | | For all available Digest commands including unsubscribe/subscribe, | visit the BMW UUC Digest page: http://www.uucdigest.com | | Send SUBMISSIONS to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Complaints? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you must. | Technical Problems? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] |__________________________________________________________________ In this BMW UUC Digest: [uuc] Someone hit my BMW RE: [uuc] RE: Someone hit my BMW! Advice sought... [uuc] Took the Plunge - MCoupe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:40:37 -0400 From: "Michael Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Someone hit my BMW Good luck and I think you are on the right track. I was shocked at some of the replies as well. I was amazed that some actually considered it cheating or screwing the insurance company if you take a check. I was accused of the same when I wrecked my LTW and choose to total it, then buy it back to rebuild. I felt it was my right that I had paid the premiums, was given the choice, didn't ask for it and decided to take the choice they gave me. I recently had a minor collision with a Honda Accord wagon. I was doing all of 3-5mph in my suburban, the person was rolling forward to make a left turn, I was rolling with them to make the same left turn and catch the light. They floored it then changed their mind. I did nothing but just release the brake, roll forward. I jabbed the brakes as soon as I noticed they were not going, slowed to about 1-2mph? then my foot slipped off the brake pedal. My feet were wet. Well in the time it took to put my foot back on the pedal, I rolled into them. Not even a scratch in the dirt on the front of my bumper. But the weight of my bumper coming down as I hit the brakes and the front of the suburban moved down about 2 inches from it, caught his bumper cover and pushed it in about 3 inches. I would have guessed $500 at most to repair. Well on top of the $250 ticket for following too closely that I was sorely pissed about, the damage paid by my insurance was $2900. In this case, I wanted to go inspect the work myself as I KNOW there was no way it was that much damage. Turns out, he had a rental car for 2 weeks, paid mileage to the shop, lost work hours and about $500 for the trouble of the wreck. I had no say so in the issue as it was after the fact when I found out and according to the company, I will experience no difference in $500 vs. $3000 they paid out. Go figure. I felt the person I hit was due whatever it put him out, but was shocked at the amount for such a minor fender bender. To say I pay alot of attention in the city now is an understatement. Mike - ----- Original Message ----- > [uuc] [update] Someone hit my BMW! Advice sought... > From: John Hovell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [uuc] [update] Someone hit my BMW! Advice sought... > > Fellow Bimmerheads -- > > Thanks all for the many replies, both on and off the forum. I'll try to > summarize (who am I kidding -- this is very long) what I have learned > here for the benefit of other forum members. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:15:28 -0400 From: "Dennis Liu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] RE: Someone hit my BMW! Advice sought... A quick response. Neil, you seem to agree that there IS a diminution in value for EVERY car; it's just a question of how much. E.g., a new E46 M3, a significant amount, a '99 Cavalier not very much. Most tellingly, you wrote, "Most pedestrian cars' values would only be affected by maybe a few hundred dollars, if at all." So, we're agreed then, even if it's only a matter of a few dollars, there IS a difference in value? I'm going back to my original proposition. Let's call it Car X. You have two identical cars. They each have Y miles, and are Z years old. Same condition. Same history. Now smack the first car, then repair it. Offer both for sale. A buyer will want the second car, all other things being equal. To sell the first car to the buyer, one would have to LOWER THE PRICE. That difference is the diminution in value. Again, this is true whether the diminution in value is $5,000, $500, $50 or $5. I'm not arguing that a pedestrian sedan will suffer anywhere near a great a loss as a rare classic. I'm just saying that EVERY CAR that has been involved in an accident DOES suffer a loss of value. Now then, WHY is a car worth less? One could argue that the reason WHY is not important, because in the marketplace, every buyer will prefer a car that hasn't been hit. But let's delve into this a bit. Why is the car worth less? Because not every repair job does in fact make the car the same as it was prior to the repair. For older cars, it's often non-OEM replacement parts. It's incredibly tough to get paint to match (not to mention matching the durability of factory paint). And some jobs are so shoddy, the functionality of the car is impaired. In the theoretical world, the car is repaired to the exact condition it was prior to the accident; since, in the real world, that happens in a small percentage of incidents, that possibility - likelihood - that the repair job is not perfect means that buyers will prefer a car that hasn't been hit. As to how to calculate that diminution... it's not an exact, down to three decimal places calculation. It's an approximation. But just because it's approximate rather than scientifically precise does NOT mean that the victim shouldn't be compensated for his/her loss!! If your car is stolen, can one calculate the EXACT amount the car was worth for the check to be cut? Of course not. But you still expect to be paid by the insurance company, right? Bottom line -- if I'm involved in an accident where I'm not at fault, why should I not be compensated for the *full* extent of my loss? vty, - --Dennis - -----Original Message----- From: Neil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 1:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; UUC Subject: Re: [uuc] RE: Someone hit my BMW! Advice sought... Dennis Liu wrote: Very interesting post, Neil. I agree with you on everything. Until you reach the point on diminished value claims. That is why I added the last line. You wrote: What makes your car so unique and special that a few thousand dollars worth of repair would ruin it's resale value - other than the fact that it's yours? For the majority of us, the answer would be not a darned thing. / Expensive does not necessarily equal valuable, rare or special. ____________ It's this point with which I completely disagree. Maybe a well-driven (used) E28 M535i (fabulous car, I had one and loved it) would, as a percentage basis of its current value, be worth slightly less in case of an accident and then a repair. Only _may_ be. Not will. But you're kidding when you apply your theory to cars in general, no? No. Take a brand new E46 M3. You've just taken delivery of it, you drive it off the lot, and you get rear-ended by a tractor-trailer. $30k worth of damage. A great body shop does all of the work, and it drives and looks like new. BUT. It's still been hit, and hit hard. Maybe Carfax as a note of it in its records. While I'd certainly take a new E46 M3 if given to me, it is not the pedestrian car most of use have. Even so, after a few years, it will drop in value just as the once coveted E30 and E36 M3s did, and will cease to be unique or special. Besides that, the moment you sign your name on the papers, it has dropped a fat chunk of value onto the parking lot, and even more by the time you get it home. The severity of the damage is irrelevant. Repaired is repaired. The quality of repair, or possible quality of repair is the real issue. BTW, Carfax is a joke. ISO search is the only way to get claim or accented history, and you have to be in the industry to even be allowed to ask for access. If you want to sell this car, is this car worth the same as the EXACT SAME CAR that was just delivered to a customer, but without an accident? No. The longer a car is owned, the less it's worth (excepting exotics or antiques). If your thinking of the idea that it will no longer be a numbers-matching car, that would only apply to the parts which are numbered (body parts, major suspension and interior parts). Even then, that matters only while the car is fairly new, or very old (i.e., classic). Even then that only is relevant for collectors and dealers. Of course not. If you were a buyer, and a choice between a 2003 M3 with 150 miles and a 2003 M3 with 150 miles and a big accident (albeit repaired impeccably), offered at the same exact price, wouldn't you chose the former? You might chose the latter IF the latter were somewhat cheaper. Maybe $500 cheaper, maybe $3000 cheaper, maybe $5000 cheaper. Whatever that difference is, that difference IS THE DIMINUTION IN VALUE. I did not say that no car's value would be diminished. I said that for the most of us, the cars we have would not be affected that much by a collision and repair. You use M3s as example. That's hardly the car to which I referred, or even the class. Most pedestrian cars' values would only be affected by maybe a few hundred dollars, if at all. My wife's '91 318is has been damaged 4 times over the years (hail $5000, deer - $6500, cat - $2500, hit&run - $4000). You can't tell, even up close and underneath. The only clues to the repair are the DOT sticker on the left fender and the better-then-OEM paint I had done while the hail and deer damage were repaired. It is worth as much as any other slightly modified E30 318is ($5k- $6k), damage not withstanding. It is more rare than the E30 325ix, yet still not in that class of cars whose value is dependent upon originally-supplied items only. Is this an extreme example? Maybe. But the same principle applies. Whenever you're trying to sell a used car, one that has been in an accident, no matter how well repaired, will, virtually always, be worth SOMETHING less than the same car that hadn't been in an accident. Would you apply that same logic to a '99 Cavalier sedan? I suspect not. The same principle does not apply. Bread and butter cars's value is not affected by damage and/or repair as much as the rare or unique cars. A car's value only MAY be affected, not WILL. There is no certainty either way. If I've been in an accident, where I am not at fault, why SHOULDN'T I be compensated for my loss?!? You certainly should be - I never implied that you shouldn't, but how can you be paid for money that you have only potentially lost? You can not know what any car will be worth in any number of years, only that it will be much less that it's worth today (with the obvious exception of a Hyundai or Kia which start out devoid of value) . You can guess, and possibly even guess fairly accurately, but it's still a guess. Thus, you can't accurately determine how much less your car would be worth after an accident. If you accept that a theoretical car may be worth less because it was in an accident, you still have to answer the basic question of "why is that car worth less?". What is different now than before it was damaged (ASSuming a complete and proper repair, relative to safety, function and appearance). Is it because the bumper cover, though identical in every way, is not the same bumper cover that was on the car when you got it? Or maybe because the A/C condenser was replaced? Is it because you now have new control arms, or two new wheels? OK, that was almost rhetorical because here's the answer. The intrinsic (not actual) value is alleged to be less because the car owner believes that the potential buyers are frightened away by the possibility that the repair was not, in fact, done properly, hence the propensity to pay less for the car or skip it all together. The potential buyer is thought to be afraid that there is something wrong with the car that will haunt their wallet later. If your potential buyer won't pay as much when you go to sell it, that would only occur when and if you sell it. Do you know when you'll be selling your car? How about what the asking price will be? Or the actual selling price? What about repairs that are not complete and proper? That's not the fault of the insurance company, and they should not be charged for that. It is an issue between the shop and the repairer. The car owner has the sole right and responsibility to choose the repaired they feel is best for the job, and who will presumably do that complete and proper repair, and the duty to make sure that they are done to the owner's satisfaction. I'm curious to hear your reply, Neil. Again, I agree completely with your other points, and can't really figure out why a diminution claim isn't appropriate. We may never agree, but I can live with that. vty, - --Dennis Neil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:58:15 -0400 From: "corbishley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Took the Plunge - MCoupe Well Gang. I finally did the dirty deed. The 2000 MCoupe is mine. White, 12k miles, AA S/C, Brembo fronts, FK Coilovers all around. I can't believe my good luck. John Corbs ------------------------------ End of [uucdigest] V3 #6705 *************************** | | In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. |________________________________________ | Please visit these UUC-approved BMW parts vendors/service providers: | (listed alphabetically) | | Autoscope-Motorsports - http://www.autoscope-motorsports.com | |==================================================== | | Koala MotorSport . BMW technical information, special tool sales/rental | http://www.koalamotorsport.com | |==================================================== | | Taylor BMW - http://www.taylorbmw.com - Doc Bimmer! | |==================================================== | Turner Motorsport Inc . 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