Hi all, I was interested to see this vote:
On 26/11/2020 10:02, Florian Effenberger wrote: > The vote that has been proposed is the following: > > 1. to freeze (not delete) the "online" repository at TDF's git, for > the time being Of course, I'd prefer a clear decision to collaborate in a positive way with COOL and mutually celebrate each other. Absent that, it seems to me that Thorsten is rather sensible when he says: On 26/11/2020 15:53, Thorsten Behrens wrote: > I'm convinced it's the least-worst short-term measure, and leaves the > door open in all directions. Keeping that door open is useful; as I wrote in my original mail: https://www.mail-archive.com/board-discuss@documentfoundation.org/msg04727.html On 01/10/2020 10:13, Michael Meeks wrote (here): > Of course, we would love to see TDF coming up with the right mix of > structure, entities, stability, branding, appreciation of corporate > contributions and so on to build confidence that another approach is > possible. There is time before our next LibreOffice release in > January for the community to ponder what to do with LOOL, and to do > their own thing, or support this move to capture the benefits > outlined above. Collabora has so far kept the door open for a smooth reconciliation by (among other things) continuing to promote LibreOffice positively (which is easier when it is not necessary to differentiate against a LOOL) and by keeping COOL building against LibreOffice master. Simultaneously various positive, confidence building improvements to TDF's marketing have been planned. These seem to go in a generally helpful direction for the project; kudos to those involved. On the other hand it has been mentioned that first testing these changes in the Desktop version is necessary. Can we re-build the necessary company investment there? That, if successful, should demonstrate there is a stable, predictable environment with a sensible lead-flow coupled to contribution to drive new investment. It seems clear that this needs to happen before any changes to COOL. It will take some significant time probably many months. Time is also needed re-build the requisite confidence in the board upholding this wiser approach. It is also encouraging to see some of our historic concerns taken on board & creative steps discussed towards meeting some of them. On the other hand - a recognition of the many benefits that I outlined which can be easily captured without further changes would be good too. Against this, I was surprised to see some Board members' responses: Different board members wrote: > ... the LOOL subproject is key for the future of TDF and its community. and: > From TDF we must recognize the strategic importance of LOOL. That is > why the repository must remain active. That way, those who wish to > join and make the project shine, can do so. and: > "1) No. Let's work to implement better tools to make it easier > to people to contribute." The future of the LibreOffice codebase and those that love it is assured, even in the very unlikely case that Online is the sole future. The overwhelming majority of the code behind Online is LibreOffice. However the direction these votes appear to go in is one of pre-judging the result, encouraging divergence, and nurturing a competing LOOL project even while we test adapting LibreOffice marketing; and for what benefit ? I wonder if that is a wise, or even intended approach? The background is that in the last ~two months since the move there have been >700 commits to COOL, from a growing and diverse set of developers against two (2) (automated translation updates) to LOOL. Having votes by non-coders to keep open a sub-project that falls rapidly behind, currently with no contributors, and using the LibreOffice brand to keep it relevant is a curious choice. It also opens TDF and LibreOffice to potential negative comparisons & criticism. Far from being an un-mitigated positive for the project. Is that the intention ? it would be nice to have a clear statement ? as I wrote before: On 01/10/2020 10:13, Michael Meeks wrote (here): > Competing with people who take your code, represent themselves > as the creators of it, do nothing effective to mention us, and > compete with us in the marketplace is a problem. RedHat had problems > with Oracle Unbreakable Linux that were not dissimilar, where morally > they should be presented as the creators. This is where we came from, my hope is that it is not where we are going together. There are a few other things that are interesting questions: TDF needs to work out if it will be a pragmatic place where do-ers decide: we used to call that a meritocracy. I also hear the view that not having binary product builds is the main cause of Online's problems wrt. attracting developers, momentum and investment. Interestingly, the TDF/Android app had regular product builds and was available in the play store. However it suffered from a near total lack of investment, neglect and ultimately was removed. That makes me wonder if providing builds alone is the panacea for creating a developer community that invests. Anyhow, board members need to decide what they want to signal to the ecosystem. At the moment it seems rather mixed. Thoughts and a deeper rational / direction are appreciated from the board, and/or comments from others. For my part, as I explained when we announced the move of the entire Online coding community away from TDF: I will abstain on this sort of vote. Regards, Michael. -- Michael Meeks, Director of The Document Foundation Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, Germany Rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy