In a message dated 7/20/01 12:51:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

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 >My brother-in-law told me about a decade ago that there were cases >where
 he personally coded "brought back from a stopped heart" a >patient on a
 daily  basis.  We have the technology to spend hundreds >of thousands per
 person per year prolonging their lives.  Indeed, >IIRC, 40% of medical costs
 in the US  are in the last 8 weeks of >life.
 >   >>
 >True but misleading in a way. Most of us get sick and die.
 
 So far, all exceptions have been only over the short term.  :-)
 >In the process we  have medical care to prolong life and an attempt >to
 prevent death and  maintain function. It is inevitable that most >of this
 cost will be near the  end of life.
 
 Somewhat close I can understand.  But, the understanding I have received
 from my friends in the medical community is that a lot of the cost is
 associated with stretching death from 1 to 8 weeks.  My brother in law
 stated that this person would never be coherent again, and never be off life
 support.  He guessed that the person was coded three times a day for a month
 until the family came to terms with the death and gave a "do not resuscitate
 order."  My sister talks about the importance of giving a durable power of
 attorney to a trusted loved one so that death, when it becomes inevitable,
 will not take forever.

I am sure there are stats on this but I don't know them. I would suspect that 
the amount of money spent on fruitless keeping people alive is actually 
relatively small compared to legitimate attempts to prolong life with good 
quality. The example you gave above is extreme but think about it. At some 
level we all want the best for our families. It is extremely hard for some 
people to let go. How do make public policy in this emotional regime? For me, 
I don't want  to linger nor do I want a family member to linger. My father 
has Alzheimer's and is in agony when he aware enough to realize what is going 
on. He is otherwise robust for 89. I don't want any measures taken when he 
gets ill except to keep him out of pain. My sister would never agree to this. 
 As to the power of attorney - absolutely.
 
 >Medicine is really not about curing disease (we don't really
 > fight wars against cancer or AIDS or anything else - If we did we >would
 lose  every one). It is about prolonging life. Let us look at >treatments
 that. Now I know how much it costs  to diagnose a stroke >in the period of
 time necessary for effective treatment  (< 3hours) >and the cost of those
 treatments. Probably about 25-50k per
 > stroke. In the past there was no treatment so no rush to the >hospital no
 CT  no fancy MR with Dr. Zimmy looking at your images on >the computer the
 hospital installed in his home (complete with >DSL). So stroke treatment in
 the future (and heart attack treatment >in the present) can never be cost
 effective.
 
 Well, I'm not sure about strokes, so let me ask a question.  Is the
 treatment considered a success when the person lives, but needs to be on a
 respirator, cannot recognize loved ones, afterwards?  I know that people who
 survive heart attacks can decide to live healthier lives and last another 20
 years.  What is the 1 year survival rate for a successful stroke treatment?
 If the 2 month survival rate is > 50%, then this treatment would actually
 decrease the fraction of money spent in the last 8 weeks of life.
Stroke treatment is judged by functional recovery as well  as death. For 
those strokes treated within three hours (very few at the moment since most 
people haven't been trained (educated) to seek care immediately with stroke 
symptoms the way they have been for heart attack symptoms) whose stroke does 
not excede a certain size (the majority but not all strokes) outcome is 
better. Better functional recovery more independence etc. The drugs work if 
given quickly enough to the correct population (the drugs are powerful 
thrombolytics - TPA - that lyse clots but at the risk of causing brain 
hemorrhage).

 I'm not arguing against the costly prevention of heart attack deaths or
 stroke deaths.  That seems like a very good thing to me. I'm talking about
 cases, like my aunt who just died, where they did what they could about the
 cancer, chemo, radiation and all, but when the end came she was allowed to
 die at home with the care of hospice nurses.

Once again, I would bet that most of the cost is for potentially frutiful 
therapies rather than quixotic life preserving efforts. 

 I've heard many horror stories from friends and relatives in the health care
 profession about people with no hope of recovery taking weeks to die on life
 support.  I've heard physicians worry about us having the ability to
 maintain a person in a half dead state virtually forever.  I find that
 scary.
 
 Maybe they have overstated the case, but I do tend to see the hospice
 movement as a positive thing. When a friend of ours was finally to the point
 where his internest said he has done all he could and our friend would still
 die in a month, he left the hospital and went to a wonderful hospice.  I
 think that is a reasonable way to handle things.
 
 Before that time, there was plenty of intervention.  Medicines were still
 taken in hospice.  But, the death was not one hooked up to machines trying
 to streatch 1 month into 6 weeks or 2 months.
 
 Dan M.
 
 
 
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