----- Original Message -----
From: "J. van Baardwijk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Brin-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 5:43 AM
Subject: RE: US Foreign Policy Re: *DO* we share a civilization?
> At 16:27 4-8-01 -0400, John Giorgis wrote:
>
> >At 03:05 PM 8/3/01 +0200 Baardwijk, J. van DTO/SLBD/BGM/SVM/SGM wrote:
> > >There are still people dying out there because of landmines. Innocent
men,
> > >women and children still die or get mutilated for life because they
> > >accidentally step on a landmine. Innocent people, John. Now THAT is
inhumane
> > >and unacceptable.
> >
> >Care to give me a figure of the number of innocent men, women, and
children
> >that have died in the 50 years there have been landmines on the Korean
> >border? Care to give me the reasonable likelihood that an innocent
man,
> >woman, or child will die in the future from a landmine on the Korean
> >border.
>
> How is that relevant? If one single individual dies because of those
> landmines that you don't want to remove, you have all the reason you need
> to get rid of those mines. Heck, IMHO, America's refusal to sign the
> Landmine Ban Treaty should be considered a crime against humanity.
>
A crime against humanity? That is an extremely strong statement. I find it
ironic, because in an earlier conversation concerning solar power, you
seemed to dismiss the possibility of people dying after slipping. If need
be, I'll get the exact quote, but I do recall you saying that people who get
up on the roof know the risk they are taking. Here even one death would be
enough for the US to be convicted of crimes against humanity? I'm guessing
that you do not picture how the land mines are arranged.
There is a border between the two countries. For 2 km on both sides of the
border, there is a zone that is demilitarized. Just beyond that, US and S.
Korean forces have placed a number of land mines. If the North Korean
forces were to storm over the border, then they would have to go through
this mine field. The idea/hope is that the mine field would slow down the
advancing armies enough so that US forces can arrive in numbers before the
N. Korean army reaches Seoul.
My understanding is that the mines are in a narrow strip along the border.
I would bet dollars to donuts that there are signs on the S. Korean side
that say "danger minefield". If someone were to climb the fence and enter
that land, I would argue that they should know the risk they are taking.
Indeed, I do not see how you would fault the people who set up the fence.
> As for the likelihood of innocent people dying: that likelihood will
> decrease, thanks to those brave people who risk their own lives removing
> those mines.
Huh? Who is removing the mines in S. Korea?
>
>
> >(Here's a hint, the United States has a detailed map of where
> >every landmine is there.)
>
> Oh, I see! And of course the US has given a copy of that map to every
> individual in that area, so they can walk around those mines safely,
right?
> And while they were at it, they also provided similar maps to people
living
> near mine fields in other locations in the world?
>
I think you miss the point. When/if we finally resolve the conflict in
Korea, I would think it reasonable for the Korean/US armies to be expected
to use their maps to remove the mines themselves. If this one area was
given what seems like an acceptable exemption, it appears that the US would
have been willing to sign the treaty.
>
> >Finally, care to take a wild guess as to how
> >many innocent men, women, and children will die if a second Korean War
> >breaks out, due to desperation on the part of the DPRK.
>
> How can you know for sure that a second Korean War will break out? With
all
> those UN forces there, I think the likelihood of it is very small.
>
How many UN forces are there? How big is the North Korean army. Tell me
honestly, did you know before you wrote those lines?
There are 37,000 US troops in South Korea. I have no data on troops from
other countries still serving in South Korea, but I'm guessing the total
number other than US or S. Korea is less than 5,000. The North Korean army
is 1.2 million.
40,000 UN troops are enough for you to be sure the likelihood is small? Are
you willing to stand by that statement?
Now, it is true that the S. Korean forces include 600,000 troops, about half
of N. Korea. But, one needs to remember that the 2/3rds of the N. Korean
forces are within 100 km of the border (the nation is not that small) and
that Seoul is not far from the border (within 100 km).
Estimates are that N. Korea is spending 25%-33% of their GDP on the
military. (In contrast, the US is spending about 3% of its GDP on the
military). This sort of spending is what is typical of countries that are
on a total war footing.
> BTW, do you realize what you're saying? According to you, innocent people
> should die because of those landmines, because more innocent people would
> die in the event of a second Korean War. Somehow, you make it sound as if
> you think that people dying in the aftermath of a war is less inhumane
than
> people dying during a war.
I think his point is that the risk posed by the land mines is far smaller
than the risk posed by removing those mines. I think you are envisioning
mines that are scattered around the country. Did you know that the mines in
question were in a narrow strip along the border? Why are you convinced that
the N. Korean army can be stopped within 100 km? Why is this narrow strip
of mines a crime against humanity?
Dan M.
