On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 04:28:30PM -0800, Nick Arnett wrote:

> It's not a perfect world, by far.  Lots of bad things happen; burying
> a child is one of the very worst.

That's much clearer than what you said before. You seemed upset about
me not understanding what you were trying to say. Maybe you should drop
that other phrase if being misunderstood bothers you, since I have seen
you use the phrase more than once.

> It's not a zero-sum game -- we can and should do all those things to
> prevent childhood death.  I didn't think I was promoting the notion of
> "denying children dying or wishing it away."  I was talking about the
> great good that religion has brought to one family, and many others
> like it, when a terrible thing happened.

If it brought the phrase, "no parent should have to bury a child",
then I'd have to disagree about the great good. How is repeating that
mantra going to do any good? I think that phrase is harmful, since it
implies either a victim mentality or denial of reality. If you want an
expression of grief and sympathy, why not something like "Its a horrible
loss, I'm so sorry".

If you are talking about friendship, sympathy, compassion, then I don't
see why you make such a big point of religion. A close group of friends
and family could also help to grieve and remember. No imaginary perfect
world or supreme being required.

> That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.  All the science
> in the world is not going to prevent bad things from happening.

It will prevent some bad things from happening. More progress will
prevent more bad things.

>  Everything we invent, we figure out how to use to hurt each other.
> Nothing in this world is purely good.

Revelation from god? Well, of course, who said otherwise? Scientific and
medical progress has been hugely NET good, however. Unless you'd rather
go live in the 1800's ?

> It's really not fair of you to imagine that I haven't hoped -- and
> pray -- for cures for Eugene, Kevin, etc.  In fact, it angers me a bit
> that you'd suggest such foolishness.

I didn't say that. I suggested that hoping for an imaginary world would
be more practically replaced with hope, or better, effort into creating
a better world.

> As for the resources of the church, there are plenty of innovators who
> report that they are empowered and inspired by their faith.  I believe
> that without it, we'd see far less success, not more.  Working *more*
> very often is not the path to a breakthrough.

And there are plenty of examples where church leaders have suppressed
scientific and technological progress.

Thomas Edison said genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration, and I
tend to agree with him. In my experience, it is generally the people who
work hardest and longest who accomplish the most.

> Finally, I have to say that there's something ironic about people
> expressing anti-religious ideas in a discussion forum that centers on
> science fiction!  If you believe that the story of Christ is fiction
> and thus should be dismissed as a giant trick played on humanity,
> then what do you believe about David Brin's fiction?  What's the
> distinction, since Brin's works clearly have some kind of impact on
> the world?  Or have I created a straw man there?

To me, the best part of science fiction is imagining future
possibilities, which allows us to consider what the human race could
become in the future based on choices which we make now.

Are saying that your view of religion is that it allows imagining
a better world so that you(pl.) can help to make the present world
more like the imagined world? I guess I wouldn't argue so much if I
thought that was the way most religious people thought about their
religion. But I really don't see many religious people thinking like
that. The "next life" is usually quite vaguely imagined, nothing like
the detailed worlds we see in good SF. And I don't often see religious
people evaluating possible futures, picking the best, and trying to
influence the world to be like their imagined world. It is usually more
like, my religion advocates this so I will advocate it, period.



-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>       http://www.erikreuter.net/
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