John wrote- >I will concede that I have been somewhat disappointed by the fact >that very few people have spoken up to affirm that the behavior of >several "atheists" on this List has been out-of-line in terms of >respecting the people of faith who are also members of this >community. :( Still, this was not entirely unsurprising, as the >Community has always preferred to rely upon self-correction of >behavior detrimental to the List, and has always been slow to build >the critical mass of opinion towards censuring or even most >drasticly, taking action, against another List Member. I am sure >that it also doesn't help that we no longer have Jo Anne Bird around >to "ding" listmembers who step out of line. Still, I think that part >of the great Brin-L experiment is to become self-regulating in the >interests of creating our own little on-line civilization, without >resorting to the use of moderators. I think that raising my concerns >that the uncivil actions of certain List-Members were having a >detrimental effect upon the Community was an entirely appropriate >course of action.
I think you will find that there are no clear rights and wrongs here, no heros and no villians, just a hot topic that is a tinderbox and people who recognize the grey areas as much as the extremes of the discussion. Largely we try and respect what members are passionate about, there is also a certain amount of "background noise" and "same old, same old" that I think we tolerate from each other. There is always a chance that someone will stomp on any given post- and if it is something you are passionate about you may risk getting your feelings trampled. Religion/or not is one of those topics.... the players and responses tend to stay passionate and "true to form". "Religion or not" is largely a personal decision in our society and the whole basis of faith is intangible- it is not a matter of building consensus. Sometimes threads mutate and live on for weeks, sometimes threads/topics die quickly... no matter how much anyone wants to make the list "hospitable to religion/safe from religion" it isn't the perogative of any individual to dictate what it "is/isn't". Perhaps I have been idealistic in thinking of tolerance as the opposite of intolerance, perhaps the word tolerance is not comprehensive enough when it comes to interaction (tolerance may be more "passive" action of non posters?- not firmly sure on this yet). (Looking back Jon did a better job than I pointing out the need for both respect and tolerance.) What I see lacking is respect for each other- one need not agree with a position, but at least respect the other person's ability to have an opinion different from you. There are really no candidates for "great shining white knight" (to be above reproach) in recent heated discussions. Frankly, people seem to be coming across like those not seeing their opinion are mentally deficient for not being able to see matters of faith/no faith. Serious discussion is lots of work.... this is not a race for speed points or dig quality points. Sometimes I think people don't respond since the topic has not exceeded some kind of "reasonable response threshold" for posters. Joanne is still around as far as I know, but sometimes I have to figure you would rather not have/need one of the list "goddesses, crones, aunts" saying something like "don't make me pull this car over" or "stop fighting about whose half of the seat you are sitting on" (do we really have no males that have threatened to "ding"- or the male equivalent of "smote"). Some topics will not come to consensus. There is a fundamental principle of adult learning that might be helpful in understanding why the group may be slow to change...... learning is based on a perceived need to change something. Quite simply, some people just don't see a need to change and others saying things harsher, more condescendingly, will generally not assist people in identifying a need (or cognitive dissonance) to promote change. Granted list business is partly my responsibility as much as it is any other list members, but I try and keep a few fire breaks around to help keep things in perspective. Dee _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
