"Bryon Daly" painstakingly wrote why I am wrong about this episode ;-)

> >From: "G. D. Akin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >As most of you know, I've been catching up on what you have all raved
> >about,
> >Babylon 5.  I kept everyone up to date with an almost episode by episode
> >commentary on season 1 and, as you told me, season 2 is even better.  I
> >have
> >the season finale to watch later today (then a wait until next month for
> >season 3 to come out.)
>
> What did you think of "Confessions and Lamentations"?  That's probably my
> favorite ep of the season.

Good episode but my I'd be hard pressed to pick "A" favorite.  If you force
me to choose, its a tie between
"The Coming of Shadows" and "In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum."

>
> >Season 2, while it took me awhile to get used to Sheridan (I liked
> >Sinclcair), has gripped me from episode 1.  However, last night I watched
> >"Comes the Inquisitor".  I watched in astonishment as this horrible,
> >pointless episode trudged through the torture of Ambassador Delenn at the
> >hand of a sadist who was ostensibley there to see if the Vorlons could
> >trust
> >her.
> >
> >BS flag is about halfway up the staff now and ascending rapidly.
>
> I was initially pretty turned off, too, when I first watched this episode.
> But on further viewings, and reading what JMS had to say, it's obvious
that
> there's a lot more going on and being said here than what I picked up on
my
> initial viewing.  Check out
> http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/043.html for extnsive
> analysis and commentary by JMS on this episode.
>
> >The Vorlons are portrayed as almost omniscinet and omnipotent, as well as
> >almost non-knowable and non-understandable.  And they have to resort to
> >this!
>
> I don't think the Vorlons were portrayed as almost omniscient.  Kosh was
> certainly fooled by his attempted murderer in the series pilot.  They are
> incredibly advanced and powerful, but not omniscient or omnipotent.
Future
> episodes will also bear this out.
>
> As to why they'd use the Inquisitor over some sci-fi plot device - the
point
> was to put her *motives* and determination to the test.  They wanted to
know
> *why* she was doing this - were her personal motivations the correct ones?
>
> Could there have been some "nicer" way or hi-tech way to so this?
Perhaps,
> but maybe the fact that they didn't choose such a way says something about
> the Vorlons...
>
> Some comments from JMS on this point (collected and rearranged from the
link
> above):
>
> "The pain is necessary because it's easy to consider laying down one's
life
> intellectually; when the pain and the agony bring it home, it's no longer
as
> easy.
>
> And there *is* no correct answer to "Who are you?" The only real answer is
> no answer, because as soon as you apply someone's term for it, you have
> limited yourself, defined yourself in someone else's terms.
>
> Doing things in a refined, gentle, intellectual manner is the sort of
thing
> Delenn's used to, she can handle that easily...the goal of Sebastian was
to
> try and *break* her. That's not intended to be done gently. You don't
break
> someone over a cup of tea discussing philosophical concepts and the nature
> of personal identity. It's also not terribly dramatic to watch.
>
> Because of her position, rank and authority, she expected to be treated a
> certain way...which was why it was important to treat her just the
opposite.
> It's easy to put oneself into a grand prophecy, to assume one has a
> destiny...to pay the price for that is something else again. Anyone can do
> the former; very few can ever do the latter.
>
> Sacrificing oneself happens frequently...but for just one other person,
AND
> in a situation where no one else would ever know about it. Bear in mind
that
> he wasn't testing people randomly; only those who felt that they were
chosen
> of god, fulfillers of prophecy...people who assumed that they were part of
> some grand scheme, and thus to whom an anonymous death is an intolerable
> thought.
>
> Also, most probably never *got* that far, unable to stand the real pain of
> being placed in this position. Everybody can talk the talk; very few can
> walk the walk. Most probably just yanked off the bracelets and split, on
the
> theory that they weren't being sufficiently coddled or glorified...or
> because being a potential prophet isn't as much fun as they'd thought.
>
> Will: thanks, and you're quite right; it does say something about the
> Vorlons that they'd use Jack for this purpose. Now we just have to further
> define what that is.
>
> It's pretty clear, to lots of folks, that the test was in some ways (most,
> actually) more for Delenn's benefit than Kosh's...lots of folks got
> this...and then others have said, "Well, if that's what he meant, why
didn't
> he just have one of them come out and SAY this, say what was learned or
that
> this was for THEIR benefit?"
>
> So frankly, whether one comes out and says something, or does not come out
> and say something, someone on one side or the other is going to give you a
> hard time about it."
>
> >Then at the end we find out that Scotland Yard wasn't inept, Jack the
> >Ripper
> >was absconded by the Vorlons for thier inscrutable reasons.  What has
this
> >to do with the "Coming Darkness?"  Where did finding out his fate fit
into
> >the grand scheme of things?  Please don't tell me he plays an important
> >role
> >later in the series.
>
> Sebastian's conversation with Sheridan at the end of the episode gives a
lot
> of insight into why the Vorlons picked him.  Basically, Sebastian had been
> guilty of one of the very things he was testing Delenn for: a blind moral
> certitude in his own righteousness.
>
> As for where finding out Jack the Ripper's fate fit into the grand scheme
of
> things... it doesn't.  You'll never see or hear of Sebastian again.
> (Although, IIRC, the actor later also plays one or two of the more heavily

> makeuped aliens at some point in the show.)  Jack the Ripper was used
> because JMS wanted to use a well-known (to the viewers), evil historical
> figure from Earth for the Inquisitor.  See quotes below for more on this.
>
> More assorted snippets collected and rearranged from the JMS quotes:
> "Also, check Sebastian's reaction when he asks Delenn what if she's wrong,
> "have you ever considered that? HAVE YOU?"
> She responds, softly, "....yes."
>
> Look at his face when she says this. It rattles him. It's not the answer
he
> expected, but more important, it's not the answer he wanted, needed to
hear.
>
> He needed to hear her say that she had never had the slightest *scintilla*
> of doubt, that as he had been, she was a True Believer, a fanatic,
incapable
> of doubt of mistake...and thus doomed to failure. He can't even meet her
> gaze; he turns, looks away, and suggests an "intermission" that is more
for
> his benefit than hers.
>
> There's an awful lot going on in this show, a great deal of it sub rosa,
> under the surface, implied in gestures or hesitations or looks, some
> implied, some stated outright. He *hates* the memory of Jack; it's not his
> name, the one thing that is his...remember, he is caught up with "who ARE
> you?" and his answer to that is lost in the persona created by
history...his
> true name, is what's totally forgotten to history.
>
> I looked at who this historical figure could be, but no one else fit into
> the area I wanted. It was a decision born of necessity, not whim. I needed
> someone far enough removed not to have any current victims' families still
> alive; someone known to a worldwide population (anonymous wouldn't have
> worked because why would Sheridan have known about him, why should we
care,
> why should it resonate, and we'd spend time explaining what he did that
> would have meant cutting out other material in the episode); the other
> serial killers tend to have clear fates, whereas Jack vanished and is thus

> "available" to us; visually that period makes for a striking contrast to
> 2259.
>
> And, again, you have to look at who he *was*...a fanatic, trying to clean
up
> Spittlefields (good cause) by hatred (wrong reason) and murder (wrong
> means), the EXACT thing Delenn warns against at the very start of the
show.
> (Did you know there's a letter in the London Times for that period that
> tries to explain the Ripper's motives as a cry ofr (for) understanding
about
> conditions in that part of London?) He felt he was a divine messenger,
> learned he was not, and in bitterness has become the single best
inquisitor
> you could've had in that job.
>
> Every single thing about Jack made him *perfect* for that role, as mirror,
> menace and warning sign. So I used him. And I'd do it again. You have to
> find what works best for the story, and do it.
>
> I used Jack because he was perfect for that particular job, which was what
> the Vorlons had decided as well. Simple as that.
>
> >Jack the Ripper has been used too much in SF.
> So, in other words, if a historical, real character has been used in some
> other venue, if the use of that same character in another, wholly
different
> world/series/show/universe is absolutely, totally and completely the right
> thing for that story, one should instead do what's *wrong* for the story
and
> leave it out?
> Sorry. Don't buy it.
>
> You can't exclude or include anything in your story just because a
character
> or concept has been used by others. If we were to do that, then we might
as
> well never make the show, because others have shown starships and
hyperspace
> and aliens. Okay, yes, others have used Jack. But not in the same way. It
> was *right* for this show...should it not be used because oths have also
> used this character? I think that the moment you begin constantly
> course-correcting your show in reaction to other shows, you're dead in the
> water. You have to do what's right for *this* story, in *this* episode.
And
> I think we showed a very different aspect of the character and the
situation
> than has been shown before. If we just did the same old gag -- Jack comes
to
> B5 and begin murdring people again -- then I'd agree. But we didn't. I
think
> you have to judge a show by what's IN the show, and how well it's done,
not
> against what has been done in other places.
>
> Otherwise we might as well throw out starships and beam weapons and aliens
> and all the rest, since those have ALL been done a lot more than Jack."
>
> >BS flag at the top of the staff, snapping furiously.
> >
> >What dreck!
>
> I disagree; I like it, but it probably took 4 viewings over the years to
> really come to that opinion.  My favorite scene, though, has nothing to do
> with JtR... it was the scene where Vir apologizes to G'Kar in the
elevator,
> very moving.

Maybe ...  I know I'll watch it again, but I'm going to wait until I have
all five seasons of my own.
And I agree, the Vir apolizing to G'Kar scene is wonderful.

>
> >If this episode had been the first I had seen, I may not have watched
> >another.  Fortunately, every episode in season 2 up to that point had me
> >riveted to the screen.  And all of you had said its going to get even
> >better.
> >
> >I know this episode is a glitch, a hiccough, but I was sorely
disappointed
> >in it.

Just watched the finale, "The Fall of Night".  I'm ready for season 3--RIGHT
NOW!

>
> Well, I don't think anyone promised you that *every* episode would be
> fantastic, just that the season as a whole was even better than season 1.
> I'll say right up front that every season has a couple so-so or
not-so-great
> episodes, IMHO.  Season 3 has one episode that I think is quite lousy, and
> the worst B5 episode overall.  But the best episodes, and the quality of
the
> overall show, make it well worth tolerating those episodes that aren't
quite
> as good, but Your Mileage May Vary, of course.

This is superior SF, and flat out good story telling.

George A



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