From: "Dan Minette" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Dogmatism Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:11:38 -0600
----- Original Message ----- From: "William T Goodall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 10:20 PM Subject: Re: Dogmatism
> > On 4 Nov 2003, at 3:29 am, Gautam Mukunda wrote: > > > --- Jan Coffey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Wasn't Marx a Jew ethnically? > > > > His family converted. It's certainly possible to be a > > self-hating Jew. > > But Marx was quite obviously ebulliently full of himself.
That can really be a very complex phenomenon. Gang members seem very full of themselves, but are often plagued with self doubt and self hate at the core. As I mentioned in my thread about my Zambian daughter, racist ideas and stereotypes about blacks seem to have been accepted as true by a number of blacks.
> >> > >> Were his statements about the Jewish religion and not > >> the Jewish people? > > > > One of the things that makes Judaism special is that > > you can't really distinguish the two. > > Conflating separable ideas leads to worthlessly muddled thinking.
Right, just like Maxwell muddled things beyond all hope when he combined the separate ideas of electricity and magnetism. :-)
The reality is and has been that Jewish identity is complex. (As an aside, I really don't see that utility of pristine theories that do not take the messy realities into account).
As far as I see, Jewishness is three fold:
Its inherited, if your parents are Jewish you are Jewish. (In particular, if your mother is Jewish, you are Jewish.)
Its cultural. One can accept or reject one's Jewish identity. Rejection has typically involved turning one's back on extended family and on one's ancestors.
Interfaith marriage has complicated things even further.
Its a religion. One accepts the Torah as uniquely revealed scripture and follows the God of Abraham. As far as the first question is concerned, there had been times when Jews were offered the opportunity to become full members of European society by renouncing their heritage and becoming Christian. I know that Teri's father's family opted to become Christians in the 19th century.
And this was historically almost always posed not as a 'choice', but an _ultimatum_: convert or die. The Inquisition is but one example.
Cultural Jews are very common today. Many Jews are atheists but still Jews. They accept their identity, but don't believe in God. Unlike Teri's family, the still consider themselves Jewish.
We've discussed this onlist before. I have doubts that 'Cultural Jews' currently outnumber religious Jews. In general, Jewish organizations and temples have been increasing their numbers quite steadily over the last decade.
Religious Jews believe in God and actively practice their faith. Joe Liberman would be a good example of this type of Jew.
You may consider this nitpicking, but for accuracy's sake I think it's best to break this down into specifics. Joe Lieberman is an Orthodox Jew. He belongs to the smallest, most traditional Jewish sect. His example would be considered extreme by the vast majority of Reform and Conservative religious Jews in this country. Observant, religious Jews who practice their faith are not necessarily Orthodox.
There are three main sects (commonly referred to as movements) of Jewish faith:
Orthodox Conservative Reform
Orthodox is considered a "traditional" movement and Reform is a "liberal" movement. Conservative is midway between the two. The sects follow different laws and guidelines and individual levels of religious observance vary greatly within each. For example, there are Conservative Jews who observe kosher laws and those who don't. There are also sects within the sects: for instance, there are Traditional Orthodox, Modern Orthodox and Reconstructionist Reform Jews. Try
http://www.nottm.edu.org.uk/ks3/jewfaq/movement.htm for more information.
Jon GSV Brin-L Encyclopedia
Le Blog: http://zarq.livejournal.com
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