> Gautam Mukunda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Deborah Harrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > No mention in the article of the fact that
exercise
> > raises HDL.  Or that avoiding a sedentary
lifestyle
> > and a diet high in saturated fats would *prevent*
> > much of the plaque build-up in the first place...
<snip> ...the vast majority of Americans who
> > have clinically significant atherosclerosis do so
> > because of poor lifestyle choices.
> 
>You know, oddly enough, I'm going to reverse
positions
> with Debbi here.  I'm going to be the one rejecting
> Puritanism, and she can be the one preaching reserve
> and self-discipline :-)

Ah-HA!  You swinger-in-the-wind, you!  ;)
And who you callin' "Puritan!?"  Considering I have
admitted my (unrepentant!) chocoholism, my belief in
sex-as-recreational (well, within the bounds of a
genuine relationship), *and* my stated religion as
'heretical Lutheran Deism,' I demand an apology and
retraction!!!
 
> In the old days when people tore their ACL, their
> doctors told them they should give up tennis.  Now
we
> get surgery, rehab, and go out and play again.  That
> drives up medical costs, but, well, so what?  It's
> worth it.

Ah, but the other benefits of playing tennis -
exercise, stress-reduction (well, maybe!), and social
interaction - outweigh (or at least even-up) the costs
in the long run.
 
> Similarly.  Even working consulting hours, I lift
> weights an average of 3 times a week, so I'm not
> defending a personal unwillingness to work out here.
> 
> But look, not everyone does enjoy working out.  If
> medical technology can now allow people to eat what
> they want, participate in the activities they want,
> not participate in activities they don't want to
> participate in, and they don't die from heart
attacks
> because of it - that's _great_.  That's what medical
> research is _for_.

If we had unlimited resources, I'd agree.  And while I
don't want to whine about the "disadvantaged poor,"
there is no question that the impoverished have much
less access to fresh fruits and vegetables (I posted
an article about this a couple of months ago), and are
heavily targeted by advertising for alcohol and
tobacco products (there was at least one good study
some years ago; I remember disbelieving it and then
driving through 'a bad side' of Dallas near Baylor,
and being shocked to find that *nearly all* the
billboards were for beer/liquor, fast food, and
cigarettes).

> Finally, the record of behavioral intervention in
> lowering cholesterol is so poor, and compliance with
> dietary and lifestyle advice is so low (on the order
> of 20% in the US - and that's compliance, not
success
> rates, which are so low it's not even worth talking
> about) that really, saying "if only people would act
> this way" is wishful thinking.  

That's because we haven't gone for a massive
educational campaign.  When intensive intervention is
undertaken, as in The Diabetes Control and
Complications Trial (DCCT), long-range improvements
*have* occurred:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14570951&dopt=Abstract
"CONCLUSIONS: The persistent beneficial effects on
albumin excretion and the reduced incidence of
hypertension 7 to 8 years after the end of the DCCT
suggest that previous intensive treatment of diabetes
with near-normal glycemia during the DCCT has an
extended benefit in delaying progression of diabetic
nephropathy." (i.e. thus delaying kidney failure)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12788993&dopt=Abstract
"CONCLUSIONS: Intensive therapy during the DCCT
resulted in decreased progression of intima-media
thickness [of the carotid artery] six years after the
end of the trial."  (i.e. less arteriosclerosis)

Re: smoking and diet vis-a-vis heart disease:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14594779&dopt=Abstract
"In the Oslo Diet and Antismoking Trial, 1232
high-risk men aged 40-49 y were randomly assigned to
either a lifestyle intervention group or a control
group for 5 y. The study showed a significant
reduction in ischemic heart disease (IHD) events in
the intervention group. Our objective was to examine
this cohort 23 y after the start of the
trial...CONCLUSIONS: These data suggest that advice to
change diet and smoking habits reduced the relative
risk of IHD mortality after 23 y in men with high
triacylglycerol concentrations. Men with normal
triacylglycerol concentrations did not appear to
achieve this long-term benefit of lifestyle
intervention."

Smoking during pregnancy:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12911442&dopt=Abstract
"CONCLUSIONS: A multimodal intervention regimen with
initial individual counseling supplemented by an
invitation to join a smoking cessation program with
nicotine replacement therapy as a voluntary option
markedly increased cessation rates during pregnancy."
[Note: While the actual rates for quiting were 14% in
the intervention group and 5% in the controls, which
is not high, given the known adverse effects of
smoking to liveborn babies (increased bronchitis and
other respiratory illnesses, decreased birthweight,
etc.), this was probably cost-effective.  More
intensive intervention might have had better rates.]
 
My personal experience with various patients and
various lifestyle-related illnesses was that
persistent, compassionate, culturally-sensitive
counseling -- not haranguing!(?sp?) -- *did* make a
difference, with weight loss, lowered blood sugar
levels, increased physical activity (I had them count
everything from raking leaves to vacuuming the floor,
and included pets if possible {walk the dog, pull a
piece of string for the cat to chase around the yard,
etc.}), lowered blood pressure levels and reduction in
various medications.  But such counseling takes time
and genuine interest in the person -- most people can
spot rote parroting a mile off.

> ...So if this discovery pans out, it's
> going to save a lot of lives and allow a lot of
> people
>to enjoy their lives more.  If that costs money,
well,
> that's the whole purpose of money, so that's okay. 

Yes, but whose money?  Or put another way, with so
many working people not being able to afford medical
insurance now -- the number of Americans sans coverage
is ~ 41 million:  
http://www.jsonline.com/news/editorials/feb03/114794.asp

and from the CDC 2003 US Health Report: "In 2001 more
than 16 percent of Americans under 65 years of age
reported having no health insurance coverage."
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus03cht.pdf

...will the 'average Joe' benefit from better
therapies?  What I am saying is that given limited
resources, *prevention* is better than *therapy for
the full-blown disease.*  I'm not against a tiered
health care system (what we have now is in fact a
hidden rationing system, with the rich having full
access and the poor limited access) -- hey, if you
want to pay for a gourmet chef to prepare your
hospital meals, be my guest! -- but to say that
prevention isn't feasible is to buy into the "we don't
need a fence at the top of the cliff, but don't take
away the ambulance at the bottom!" scenario.  (That's
the single-sentence version of a much longer
vignette.)

> Circling back to a previous discussion, I lay high
> odds that they work for a pharma company of some
sort
> (probably a small one) and not the government :-)

According to the second-to-last link above, "The
fastest growing sector of our health care spending is
in pharmaceuticals. In 2001, the last year for which
we have complete statistics, prescription drugs cost
more than $140 billion, almost 10% of the total.

"The problem lies in how the industry spends that
money. About 15% goes to research and development.
That's money well-spent, but it's far less than what
is spent on net profits (19%), cost of sales (25%) and
marketing, general and administrative (33%)..."

I've seen similar figures elsewhere (and I think I
posted them with a link a month or two ago).

Until we have unlimited resources, we're going to have
to allocate our public health expenditures more
wisely.

Debbi
whose stance on convicted murderers getting organ
transplants *could* be described as Puritanical...  ;)

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