Dan Minette wrote:
I'm trying to figure out your arguement. The question is whether we'll stop terrorism by simply being as just as we can
That's not a question for me. I don't think we're called to "stop terrorism." I don't think that's within human power. The question for me is how to love God and love my neighbor. It is certainly arguable that sometimes the way to love my neighbor is to kill him.
Anyway, you're starting with a premise that I reject -- that we must stop terrorism. Although that sentiment is not quite in a league with wiping out all the evil-doers, it strikes me as a tempting distraction. Let's do our best to stop terrorists -- from attacking and from coming into existence -- with a humility that accepts the fact that we cannot eradicate evil from the world. GWB's use of scripture and religious language says to me that he thinks he can, that we as a nation can. But he's not God and neither is the United States.
But, becasue they are people, are we not called to act to help them, not just treat them decently when we happen to bump into them. If our actions do not actually help them,
Are you thinking that I'm in favor of only helping people I happen to bump into? I don't think that's my idea. It is a daily struggle for me to have some glimmer of an idea of what's my business and what isn't, but that's not based on who I bump into.
The faith of James.
James 2:18-17,24
"How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good axct claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, ' I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plentyu,' without giving them theser bare necessities of life, then what good is that.....You see now thit ist is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified."
We're reading that quite differently, perhaps. This says to me that faith calls and empowers us to good works, and to avoid the temptation of simply offering "lip service."
The big problem I have with measuring morality by outcomes is that we generally give in to our human desire to try to control things that are beyond our control, such as the existence of evil. In my experience, when I demand that things go the way *I* think they should, I'm playing God. Not that I've managed to let go of much of that sort of habit in myself.
Right now, I'm struggling with how to have this discussion without demanding that you see things my way, for example. Not everybody struggles with this, but everybody struggles with something.
For example, do you agree with the Bonehoffer on Christian duty in the face of evil? Or do you think he was self-righteous.
There's some self-righteousness in Bonhoeffer, but not much -- far less than in most of us. What I appreciate most about him at the moment is his insight into how to live in community. I don't think he had pat answers to our response to evil (did he talk about "duty" or reponse?), which earns my respect. "The Cost of Discipleship" describes very human struggles with understanding the Beatitudes, which seems rather nutty from a worldly viewpoint.
As for worrying just about our own sins, I think we're called to let go of worry about anybody's sins, including our own, as they were nailed to a cross 2000 years ago.
Actually, I was wondering why you quoted:
<quote> Be still before the LORD and wait patiently for him; do not fret when men succeed in their ways, when they carry out their wicked schemes.
8 Refrain from anger and turn from wrath; do not fret-it leads only to evil. 9 For evil men will be cut off, but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land.
<end quote>
with respect to this discussion. You also said the big picture was taken care of. If it is, then we only need to focus on our immediate surroundings; social injustice is none of our business. But I don't think you believe that,
Oh, I see now. I don't read that Psalm as "just pray." I think it urges us to accept the world as it really is, instead of demanding that it should be some other way or trying to control things that we cannot. It calls us to put great trust in God to take care of that which is beyond our control, trust that God is at work in the lives of our friends and enemies, freeing us from playing God in their lives, allowing us to be real with them.
OK, but then what is the context when deciding whether to act?
That's where prayer enters in, along with other means of piety, discipleship, grace, study, etc. -- and faith, lots of faith. Not to mention acceptance, perhaps especially acceptance that people of faith disagree.
The real question for me is the extent to which I have accepted the fact that I am acceptable as I am, that God loves me not despite my errors, but comes to me in my errors, freeing me from the trap of guilt. To the extent that I don't accept this, I tend to distract myself in worldly things (Brin-L can be one sometimes). The more I let go of such worries, the more free I find that I am to reach out to those around me in love, the more I know where I am called.
"Without armaments peace cannot be kept; wars are waged not only to repel injustice but also to establish a firm peace" (Martin Luther).
OK, but is it OK to wage war to stop injustice instead of just repelling it from one's own home? I'll agree that great care is needed to be sure that this isn't just self-justification, but there are times when it is clearly true. Going to the Sudan again, my daughter Neli's best friend Naomi is from a family caught up in the violence there What would you say to Neli when she says we are called on to stop this genocide? Obviously, the popular thing to do, by world standards, is to publically say "oh my" and let it continue. But what is the moral thing to do?
We'll never be certain, at least in this world (but there's Good News about that). I sure don't know what the moral thing is for you. More important, that's not for me to judge. My sense of what is the next right thing to do is like what the guy said about advertising -- 75 percent of it works, but we never know *which* 75 percent. In other words, I'm sure that I'm wrong some of the time (perhaps more than 25 percent -- I'm probably wrong there, too) but I don't know when.
The next right thing for you do with regard to the Sudan might be to go there and feed people. For me, it might be to encourage a new kind of journalism in East Palo Alto. Still, it is very difficult for me to trust that God is working through all of us, that I am not called to do something about every injustice in the world. Yet when I accept that, it helps me to be far more effective where I do apply myself.
Sometimes it is helpful for me to remind myself that the list of things God wants from me starts with thanking Him for this day, brushing my teeth in the morning and such.
It seems as though the less I try to do "big" things and the less attached I am to the outcome I think things should have, the more peace I have and the more good I do in the world. Go figure. It's certainly not what the world teaches us.
I'd say that we are called upon to stop it, if we can. The UN General Assembly has given its tacit blessing to the genocide; so that's not a reasonable path to stop it. So, what is the moral action, when the world has given the genocide a green light?
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
What can I change about the Sudan? My vote, for one thing. Where I donate money (Lutheran World Relief is in there, thank goodness).
Obedience to authority was a strong theme in Nazi Germany, which many argue was encouraged by Lutheran tradition. Lutherans have no corner on truth. What is the first casualty of war?
The battle plan? :-)
Seriously, while it is worthwhile to have a healthy skepticism about one's own motives, being too scrupulous about it can lead to total inaction.
No disagreement here. And I'm surprised that you got the idea that I'm contemplating my motives. I realized a long time ago that I'll never have a pure heart about anything -- I'm a two-sided guy. I seek to have more of the loving, sacrificial side and less of the selfish side come out. It's hard; I have many habits. My growing desire is to contemplate (or really, be aware of) the presence of God.
I've tried to ask very specific questions, to help me understand your viewpoint, but the answers I get seem to be on a tangent to the question.
The truth was proclaimed loudly in the Bremen Confession. It was ignored by most. It was a call to an active, not a passive response to evil. As imperfect as we are, I think we are called to act, even before we have addressed all of our own sins.
I can't address my sins. Not in my power. Not that I don't try anyhow... but that just another distraction, no better than addressing your sins.
So, lets get back to Iraq. I was opposed to going in, even though I knew that if we didn't tens of thousands would die every year and tens of thousands would be tortured every year. The suffering of those people weighed on my conscience, even though I didn't think going in was the right choice. The reason is that I thought going in would cause, in the long run, more suffering.
I got sucked in by the talk of nuclear weapons, which brought up my childhood nightmares from the '60s.
Finding this balance is a difficult task of discernment.
On this I enthusiastically agree.
My strongest point is that we need to actively find the balance. We need to acknowledge that our actions/inactions have both good and bad consequences. The results of our actions do matter.
Absolutely. I didn't intend to contradict that idea. I'm criticizing the idea of choosing an outcome -- e.g., ridding the world of evil-doers -- and becoming totally attached to it. That sort of attachment is a big hook for evil to snag.
Finally, I hope you can help me in this dialog, Nick. I'm honestly not sure where you are coming from. If it sounds like I'm accusing you of holding positions you don't; I'm not. I'm just taking stabs in the dark, trying to see if I can find where you do stand.
I'll answer with Rich Mullins' words to perhaps my favorite song:
If I stand let me stand on the promise That you will pull me through And if I can't let me fall on the grace That first brought me to You And if I sing let me sing for the joy That has born in me these songs And if I weep let it be as a man Who is longing for his home
I don't mean to be evasive, but neither do I mean to give advice.
Nick
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