Dave, I also understand what you are saying and I would like to add my agreement to it as well.
I can relate to the comments that Warren was making with respect to ones beliefs always being "right" from ones own point of view. I myself have gotten into many discussions with friends about that very subject. Most people either think the point is trivially true, or completely misunderstand it. So I just want to make it clear that I also agree with those comments. Even though I happen to feel that at any given time my current thoughts on a subject are "right" I still am able to recognize that many of my currently "correct" points of view differed in the past. When presented with new information I am thus rather confident that such views might stand the chance of changing in the future. While I feel that some views which have not changed in a long time might never change, I still must acknowledge the possibility (even if I only acknowledge it internally). However the fact that my "right" ideas might change in the future has nothing at all to do with the idea that someone else might (and very well dose) hold a differing view point on the subject. I might feel that they are wrong, but I still should be able to acknowledge without rancor that they do in fact equally believe in their "right" thoughts. Their thoughts clearly are based on different data than my own, or they interpret the same data differently than I do. Thus the point of any conversation with someone who holds a vastly differing idea than my own would be for me to learn any new data that they had, explain new data to them, or try to understand why our interpretations of common data differ. If we are able to agree on all of the major data points associated with a given subject, and also come to have similar interpretations of this data, then our ideas should largely be in sync. If you start out by dismissing the very possibility of someone else having valid data or valid interpretations this type of mutual exchange will not happen. In affect you are telling the other person that everything they know about the subject is wrong, or they are interpreting everything wrong, or both. You are claiming that there is nothing they can give to you, and instead they must, if they want to continue the conversation, start only listening to, and agreeing with your data and interpretations. It might not be your intention, but that is how it comes across. Please note the difference here between having to always admit that you are only expressing your own opinions vs trying to leave open the possibility that the other person might be right, even if you do not understand why yet. This subject is important to me because I am often (always?) a strong reductionist in any kind of argument. I always reduce complex things to one or two discrete elements and then build up from there (conversations are the transmission of data and interpretations of data...;). I am well aware however that the very act of a reduction has the chance of outright rejecting a large part of someone else's basis for their beliefs. I try to be away of this, but I do not always catch it. As a result I do my best to being open to correction if I do such a thing. Not having been a reader of this list for long though (and having only started contributing in the last couple of days) I could very well be missing some old arguments or personality conflicts. Leaving that aside I did not take Dave's comments to be as aggressive as some are taking them to be. It read a lot more like an honest attempt at allowing a more fruitful conversation to take place. John P.S. There are only two kinds of people in the world, people who put everyone into two kinds of people, and everyone else. _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
