On Apr 18, 2005, at 12:56 PM, Nick Arnett wrote:
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:13:49 -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote
IOW, it's all about faith. ;) The above is a much "better" answer than many might have given.
"Thank you."
Well, it was especially the part where you said nothing was provable. That's pretty damn refreshing coming from a believer.
Here's something else, then. What if there were Iraqis praying for an outcome that could only have been possible if Wes didn't survive?
Or anybody! I suspect there were prayers for various people to be elected
POTUS last fall. I stopped myself from doing that and decided to pray to
accept whatever outcome happened.
That's it. That's it right there, I think. That's probably the key. Rather than petitioning a deity for an *outcome*, it might be much more sensible to petition that deity for acceptance of circumstances.
On the other hand, I certainly find compassion for those who lose faith after
a terrible thing that God seems to have been able to prevent. I know a mother
whose son was killed on very his first mission in Iraq, in one of those
against-all-odds accident. She says she can't get over the fact that it was
such an unlikely event (the accident) and lost faith in God.
Depends on what/why, etc., I think -- I mean, if one is simply angry at one's god and saying "Stuff it" because of that, it seems a little like a small child pouting and saying "I hate you" because Mommy won't let him have a candy bar.
Rather than turn from a faith it seems to me that a more sensible approach would be to interrogate the faith and especially what one's expectations are of that faith.
For me that was the first step toward complete atheism, but it was one that I took about 15 years before the "final" destination was reached. (Where I'll be in another 15 years is anyone's guess.) My own investigations led me to a conclusion that made sense to me, a lot of sense, but I realize that not everyone -- not even a huge minority -- agree.
Heh, unlike Iraq it seems I can find some reason for faith, belief and even religion -- I mean I recognize the value and comfort it gives to millions. But there are places where struggles to understand something in the context of faith are, to me at least, so simply answered. Because by removing the idea of deity from the equation, there's suddenly no anomaly left to ponder.
"Why did this or that god let this or that thing happen" suddenly becomes a question that doesn't need to exist any longer...
Ostensibly anyone who prays (except possibly a Satanist) is praying to fundamentally the same deity as everyone else. Does that statement make sense to you, or are you of the persuasion that some religions have the right god and others don't?
That is a difficult question that I avoid as much as possible... ;-)
It's another one that was a step on my personal journey to atheism, as it happens, so maybe that's a good thing.
But I'm
serious, as it strikes me as a how-many-angels-can-dance sort of thing. It's
not really any of my business, I tend to believe. If your higher power is the
sofa, go for it, I say. See how it works for you.
What if the sofa responds to prayers in exactly the same way as holy doctrines' deities? Allah, JHVH, Iasus, the Hindu manifestations...
IOW is it the heart that is heard, or is it the clacking of beads/burning of incense/intoning of litany that reaches the deity's notice?
To me, that's a different question. The first thing that comes to mind is
that I hope (and pray!) that what is heard is God's will, by me. Even at
church, when we talk about prayer, many of us tend to forget that it is a
conversation, not a monologue. My religion teaches that God helps us find the
words to pray and even answers the unspoken prayers and those for which we
have no words. As for me, if I can keep it simple, pray to God instead of
Santa Claus, and take the time to shut up and listen, I'm doing well.
OK, but there are other religions that would approach this from a very different perspective. I think you basically answered the question, and I do think it's related to "which" god is being addressed in the prayers of any believers, regardless of the rituals associated therewith.
That is, back when I did believe in such a thing, I came to a point where I could not resolve the claims that some made -- that only this particular book and this particular god were true; or that unless you used a specific name (i.e., "Yeshua") your prayers went unheard. That's -- to me -- one of the silliest notions imaginable.
That is, assuming a deity, its heart must be open to any heart open to it. Else it's not a deity, in my mind. That means rituals, names, even languages are all superseded by the value contained in the *being* doing the reaching or attempting the communication.
Not a monologue -- right. That does seem forgotten a lot. Cursory "thanks for..." sentences, and then five pages' worth of "and please do this, please do that," etc.
It's clear in scripture, but it could be argued that scripture is interested more in solidifying a body politic than it is in disseminating objective truth.
That word "objective" seems odd there. And yes, it could be argued.
Well, I'd assume that anyone claiming to have a direct line to what a god thinks or expects would a priori be proclaiming an ostensible objective truth. Right? I mean, s/he would not say "God says don't fornicate, though s/he/it admits s/he/it could be wrong on that..." You'd think such proclamations would leave no wiggle room, and that's really the problem.
I didn't say that God was in charge of all things, only involved.
I thought you wrote that the universe would grind to a halt without a deity. That seems a lot more than involved to me. That reminds me of a god that is (for instance) constantly supplying propulsive force to keep the planets in motion.
I have to have gasoline for my car to go, but that doesn't mean the gasoline
is in charge. Not a great metaphor, as gasoline is unintelligent, but perhaps
that explains what I'm saying?
Maybe, but it still does leave a lot of room for interpretation of meaning. But I think I get it.
Interesting examples of grace alone vs. decision...
You forgot to add "in my opinion". ;)
Oh, sure, in *your* opinion.
;P
-- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress "The Seven-Year Mirror" http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf
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