-----Original Message----- From: Warren Ockrassa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Killer Bs Discussion <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:22:25 -0700 Subject: Re: Mindless and Heartless
On Aug 17, 2005, at 9:10 PM, Julia Thompson wrote: > Warren Ockrassa wrote: >> On Aug 17, 2005, at 8:49 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> It is obvious to me that you don't know shit about anti-semitism >> It's obvious to me that you're a self-righteous, arrogant whiner with >> >> delusions of persecution. >> I imagine by now that Dan is wishing to hell he hadn't thrown in his >> lot >> so readily with yours. You're no more sane on this subject than >> those who >> bear prejudice against Jewish people. > > I may be wrong, but -- > > I think that Dan and Zimmy know each other a lot better than you know > > either of them, and that Dan was well aware of Zimmy's feelings on the > > subject before he said anything, and also familiar with Zimmy's style > of > argument. That's entirely possible, but I don't think I'd describe what's been spewing forth recently as "argument". It's a lot more like "Oy vey schmeer, poor me, poor us, no one has any clue whatsoever and because of my minority status I am free to both be as overbearing as I want to *and* accuse anyone who doesn't agree with me totally of ignorance or worse." Now you insult me. I never claimed minority status. I never said I was "poor". And quite frankly many non-jews have documented and been horrified by the pervasive antisemitism of the west. The books by Johnson and Carroll were written by non-jews after all. It is ironic that you fail to understand that what I am saying is quite the opposite of no one has a clue who is not jewish. You can have a clue by just reading a little history. It is actually quite easy to see the nature of antisemitic arguements after reading these books because these arguements never change. There is no way to win in this discussion. Even a slight questioning of such a perspective is being insensitive; nothing short of total disavowal of massive swaths of Western culture is acceptable; nothing short of repudiation of a person's entire weltanschauung is to be tolerated if there's even the merest hint of -- totally unsubstantiated -- anti-semitism. Again - do some reading before you talk about unsubstantiated claims. By the way for those who seem to believe that I am arguing that Jews and Israel cannot be criticized wihtout that criticsm being anti-semitic I offer the this rebuttal. Crticism is fine. Blaming is not. Criticism is specifc. I am critical of jewish setttlement of occuppied lands. I am critical of Sharon and very critical of the jewish right wing. But I do not blame Israel for what is happening in the Middle East. That is the crux of the arguement. To state that the war is the result of US tilting to much towards Israel is to blame Israel and the supporters of Israel in the US. To say that our policy towards is Israel in the mideast was at least a partial cause of 911 is to blame Israel and its supporters. This ignores the fact that US policy in the mideast is complex. Why not blame our own oil men or our auto industry. In fact why not blame US car buyers who insist on buying fuel inefficient SUVs thus continuing our dependence on arab oil and enriching the people who turn ar ound and use this money to support terrrorists. (Bemmzim, before you reply to the above, please bear in mind that just because you say something is anti-semitic DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS. And I'll thank you to stop making assumptions about how well I know history.) I would humbly submit that the arguement fits into the classic anti-semitic formula. I would ask you to tell us what you have read of the history of western anti-semitism that rebuts my assertions. As to seeing evil around me. You have got me there. I am actually concerned that there will be a backlash against jews if not here at least in Europe. Remember that the grand parents of adult europeans were all adults when the Holocast occurred. Remember that Pope Pious refused to lift a finger to help Italian jews (they were marched past the vatican on their way to concentration camps). Remember that the grandparents of the average French person in his/her 50-60 was an adult when the Dryfus affair occurred and that the French army actively and again actively refused to exonerate Dryfus until recently(and then only half hartedly). So we are no more than 2 or 3 generations from a period when anit-semitism was the default view of a majority of European christians. Two generations is not enough to erase subtle pervasive attitudes. I see anti-semitism as a latent virus that can lurk around for a long while only to reactivate when stress occurs. We are in a time of stress. In the past, times of stress produce reactivaion of virulent anti-semitism. _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
