> Dan Minette wrote:
> > Behalf Of Deborah Harrell

[article about Somalia]
> > Last year the International Crisis Group, a
> political
> > think-tank, reported that: "In the rubble-strewn
> > streets of the ruined capital of this state
> without a
> > government... al-Qaeda operatives, jihadi
> extremists,
> > Ethiopian security services and Western-backed
> > counter-terrorism networks are engaged in a
> shadowy
> > and complex contest waged by intimidation,
> abduction
> > and assassination..."
 
> > What a tangled mess.  I am not saying "do
> nothing,"
> > but doing any old thing in the short term is not a
> > substitute for thinking ahead and acting for the
long
> > term.  Backing warlords accused of murder and rape
> > is not how to win the hearts and minds of the
locals
> > (or anyone else).  If you're going to claim moral
> > superiority over the world, you'd do well not to
> > be supporting butchers and rapists.
 
> It is a very messy situation.  But, if you look at
> previous policy in
> Somalia, you will see the most unpleasant nature of
> the options that exist.
> We tried doing the right thing early in the '90s,
> but we got caught up in
> the very messy situation, and ended up with our dead
> soldiers being dragged
> through the streets.  Our choices at that time were
> to either escalate, and
> take real control of the security of the country, or
> to get out.  We got out.

I wonder if the response would have been different had
that occured post-9/11 (I'm betting yes, but
hindsight-)
 
> Now, we are in a situation where we can find no
> parties without blood on
> their hands to back.  One option is to refrain from
> being involved.  But, if
> AQ ends up running the country, and has a safe haven
> for staging raids
> elsewhere, will we end up having to intervene with
> troops, as we did in Afghanistan?  

I supported the military engagement there, as the
Taliban contributed directly to al-Quada --> 9/11. 
But the Taliban's being in power came from the vacuum
after Russia left, and 'we' concluded the job was
done.  We learned to our deep chagrin that it was not.
 Unfortunately, by hopping into Iraq essential
military units were pulled from hunting and clearing
al-Quada and the Taliban; they're back in play quite
strongly there again.  It was an error, IMO, as I
stated years ago.
 
> I know you talk about diplomatic pressure.  But, to
> first order, diplomatic
> pressure is making threats/promises.  Even between
> nominal allies, this
> happens.  Since you cited a column on the limited
> usefulness of sanctions,
> and appeared to approve of it, then I'm not sure
> what your thoughts are on
> diplomatic arm twisting. 

Oh, I'm all for carefully applied, even
under-the-table arm-twisting as I think I called it
several years ago;  the art is in chosing who and what
to go public with, and who to really treat with kid
gloves.  You have to know what kind of a culture
you're dealing with, and judiciously use carrots and
sticks (I even compared it to dealing with a
proud-but-potentially-useful horse vs. a vicious one,
IIRC!  The former deserves to have ers dignity
preserved as much as possible, the latter needs to be
shown in no uncertain terms who's lead mare).

<grin>  Incidentally, in our approach to
fundamentalists, you take Fareed's 'engagement'
option, while I tend to the administration's
'isolation' option; who has a better chance of
changing their minds?  Hint: not this writer.

> If people don't respond to heavy pressure, why
> would they respond to light pressure?

Actually, if you apply light but correctly-placed
pressure, rather than the heavy-handed smackage that
pretty much requires a vigorous dominance stand-off,
you have a decent chance of getting at least some of
what you want.  As the article noted, consider the
treatment of Vietnam (post-Saigon's fall) vs. Cuba,
and the outcome for those citizens and US interests.
 
> One of the difficult things is that backing the
> lesser of two evils has
> resulted in a better outcomes for the US a number of
> times.  Spain, South
> Korea, and Taiwan are three examples that come to
> mind.  For that matter,
> would it have been better to not work with Stalin to
> beat Hitler?  To zeroth
> order, it was the Russian army that beat
> Hitler...the US's supply of Russia
> may have been it's biggest contribution to winning
> the war in Europe.
> Should FDR have gotten more out of the deal?  

Yes.  From what I have read (admittedly not
extensive), the partition was a gift to the Russians,
whether direct or not.  But you also have to be able
to correctly identify the lesser of two evils; here
might be the former Shah of Iran, Saddam himself, the
Contras...and so on.  Not a great record, IMO (which
is not as well-informed as it ought to be).
 
> Another way to look at Somolia is that finding a
> political solution there is
> just that much harder than in Iraq, where we have a
> great deal of influence
> and, finally, a first rate ambassador.  In Somolia,
> what exactly would AQ's
> motivation be for coming to a meeting of the minds
> with the US...if we
> weren't fighting them by proxy?  Wouldn't they just
> laugh at our diplomacy?

That's why I said it's a sticky-wicket; but if you
back anarchistic butchers the regular people
eventually will welcome any semblence of order, even
if at a terrible price.  Consider that some groups in
Uganda currently don't want the international court to
deal with the 'lord's resistance' movement, for fear
of continued random violence.  "Peace at any price" -
not my ideal, but than I haven't watched generations
of my people's children kidnapped, tortured, and
turned into near-monsters.

Debbi
Perhaps Being A Bit Of A Gardening Mary Maru    ;)

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