Wrong agauin, As Michael Petch has already admitted of. (His arguments refute yours quite correctly and specifically).
On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 13:37, Frank Berger <[email protected]> wrote: > What I am denoting is that the NNP "learns" the attributes of the >>> specific roll generator you use. And does it probably better than a >>> human can. >>> >> > This is absolute nonsens. > Why? quite easy. Any NN I'm aware of is presented the position to evaluate > it. > Therefore it never sees the dice and can therefore not learn a pattern. A state space convolutioon CAN and DOES learn attributions from a aseries of rolls: otherwise the network would not learn, whether held static AFTER learning or not. This is so close to 1st grade I wonder if people wil see it immediately. > > > > This is interesting. The Mersenne Twister is linear, so in principle it >> is "easy" to learn how to predict it. Whether a neural net will in fact >> learn how to predict it depends on a lot of things, but it's entirely >> believable. >> > The Mersenne Twister isn't cryptographic strength but fulfills quite some > statistical tests. > AFAIK as long as you don't need cryptogrphic strengt MT is regarded as the > best choice. > Therefore to train a neural net to predict something that is nearly > undistinguish from real random > is an absolute waste of time. Even with a simple linear congruence random > number generator > it's a waste of time. When youy train the NN< it is trained. Whether your training INTENDS to train it in that way does not change whether or not all or a portion of that training is in fact DOEN by the training you select for another purpose. So your arguemnt is again specious. > > > > > > > In addition to the possibility of using physically random bits, one could >> also try using a cryptographically secure random number generator. >> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographically_secure_pseudorandom_number_generator >> >> It would be interesting to see if training the neural nets with different >> random number generators produces noticeably different results. >> > No. It wouldn't be interesting and no it wouldn't show any effect. > Even if a RNG was heavily biased throwin e.g. 25% 3's and even if the NN > would see the dice the effect would even out over the large number of > different positions presented the net during learning. And even if there was > an effect on the 8th post point digit it would be completely overridden by > the effect of the initial randomization of the NN Noo, it owuld NOT even out; any experience Backgammon player will tell you that. For example, removing ALL threes from the rolls WIL produce a DIFERENT game Similarly, removing 99.99%, 899.9% or 90%. ANY bias wil change the flow of the game. ANY game. > > > Analyzing the effect of rng on NN seems to me as useful as analyzing > conspiracy theory... Ad hominems. Not math, and not nackgamoon, fer sure. > . > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Bug-gnubg mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnubg > -- Use Reply-To: & thread your email after the first: or it may take a while, as I get 2000+ emails per day. -- Roy A. Crabtree UNC '76 gaa.lifer# 11086 (mail, residence) Roy A. Crabtree 3322 Wheeler Road SE Oak Hill Apartments #T-4 Washington, DC 20032-4166 202-562-1909 US no voicemail (try after 2100EST) (secondary mail) Roy A. Crabtree USPS POB 58097 Washington, DC 20034-8097 703-318-2106 (msgs only, use my name) (best effort next day M-F pickup) [When you hear/read/see/feel what a y*ehudi plays/writes/sculpts/holds] [(n)either violinist {Menuhin} (n)or writer {"The Y*ehudi Principle"} (n)or molder (n)or older] [you must strive/think/look/sense all of it, or you will miss the meanings of it all] [email protected] Forwards only to: [email protected] [email protected] CC: auto to ^ http://musings-roy-crabtree.blogspot.com [& others] http://www.authorsden.com/royacrabtree http://skyscraper.fortunecity.com/activex/720/resume/full.doc -- (c) RAC/IP, ARE,PRO,PAST (Copyright) Roy Andrew Crabtree/In Perpetuity All Rights/Reserved Explicitly Public Reuse Only Profits Always Safe Traded
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