>> Why not try to "upgrade" your existing supervised learning approach?
Yes! This is something I really need to do! Is this the right place to make a feature-request? ** I think it would be really useful if GNU could auto-magically save screenshots of all of my errors above, say, -0.04 in a folder ** That it! (..for now - could be more sophisticated, i.e. auto-position categorisation into sub-folders, racing cube errors, PNPL, make 5 point or not, break prime, trap plays etc. etc. but a good place to start ;-) Is this stuff of dreams even possible in 2019 A.D.? Might other bg students find such a personalised blunder folder useful? Thanks if you can help! Wayne -- Sent from my Android phone On Thu, 5 Dec 2019, 5:00 pm , <[email protected]> wrote: > Send Bug-gnubg mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnubg > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Bug-gnubg digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: current development (Øystein Schønning-Johansen) > 2. Re: current development (Joseph Heled) > 3. Re: current development (Myshkin LeVine) > 4. Re: current development (Joseph Heled) > 5. Re: current development (Joseph Heled) > 6. Re: current development (Philippe Michel) > 7. Re: current development (Philippe Michel) > 8. Re: current development (Joseph Heled) > 9. Re: current development (Russ Allbery) > 10. Re: current development (Joseph Heled) > 11. Re: current development (Philippe Michel) > 12. Re: current development (Joseph Heled) > 13. Re: current development (Joseph Heled) > 14. Re: Alphazero / Deepmind backgammon project (Wayne Joseph) > 15. Re: Alphazero / Deepmind backgammon project (Joseph Heled) > 16. Re: current development (Nikos Papachristou) > 17. Re: current development (Øystein Schønning-Johansen) > 18. Re: current development (Timothy Y. Chow) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 21:23:09 +0100 > From: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <[email protected]> > To: Joseph Heled <[email protected]> > Cc: Ralph Corderoy <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: > < > caozpfnrhzsazdvnqor5_vd845v5zre-rjxhdhqootqgm80j...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > But let's chat about the idea instead. What will it actually mean to 'apply > "AlphaZero methods" to backgammon.' ? > > AlphaZero (and AlphaGo and Lc0 and SugaR NN) is just more or less the same > thing as reinforcement learning in backgammon. So, from my understanding, > it is rather AlphaZero, who has applied the backgammon methods. They are > both the chess and go variants trains with reinforcement learning pretty > much like the original GNU Backgammon, Jellyfish and Snowie. In Go they had > to make a move selection subroutine based on human play and then add MCTS > to train. Also the neural networks are deeper and more complex. The nn > inputs features are also so more complex and can to some extend resemble > convolutions known from convolutional neural network (And that the inputs > are not properly described in the high level articles.) > > Apart from that, it is actually same thing: Reinforcement learning. > > But how can we improve: We believe (at least I do) that the current state > of backgammon bots are so strong that it plays close to perfect in standard > positions. It is in uncommon and long term plan positions (like deep > backgames and snake rolling prime positions) bots still can improve. Let me > throw some ideas up in the air for discussion: > > Can we make a RL algorithm that is so fast that it can learn on the fly? > Say we during play find a position where some indicator (that may be > another challenge) indicates that this is a position that requires long > term planning. If we then have the ability to RL train a neural net for > that specific position, that could be an huge improvement in my opinion. > (Lot's of details missing.) > > And then, could the evaluations be improved if we specialize neural > networks in to specific position types, and then make a kind of nn > selection system based on k-means of the input features. I tried that many > years ago with only four classes. Those experiments showed that it's not > hopeless approach, and with faster computers it can easily create much more > than just four classes (fours was only the first number that popped into my > head those days) > > Then next idea: What about huge scale distributed rollouts? Maybe we could > have a system like BOINQ to do rollouts on the fly? I'm not sure how this > should be used in a practical sense, and I'm not sure how hard it would be > to implement (with or without BOINQ framework) but I'm just kind of > brainstorming here. > > -Øystein > > > On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 6:47 PM Joseph Heled <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I was intentionally rude because I thought his original post was > > inappropriate. > > > > -Joseph > > > > On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 06:42, Ralph Corderoy <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Joseph, > > > > > > > I thought so. > > > > > > > > I had the same idea the day I heard they cracked go, but just saying > > > > something is a good idea is not helpful at all in my book. > > > > > > I think you're wrong. And also a bit rude to boot. > > > > > > It's fine for Tim to suggest or ponder an idea to the list. It may > > > encourage another subscriber, or draw out news of what a lurker has > been > > > working on that's related. > > > > > > -- > > > Cheers, Ralph. > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnubg/attachments/20191204/4c825a45/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 09:34:45 +1300 > From: Joseph Heled <[email protected]> > To: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <[email protected]> > Cc: Ralph Corderoy <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: > <CAG8x8-0mzJFO=_ > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > The main difference, if I understand correctly (and I know very little > here) is to bootstrap from the ground. That is, no pre-computed inputs. and > let the network figure it out by self play. > > We have a great test case in that we can start with just racing. > > That said, I think we will need a net for each match score, since cubeless > -> cubeful is where things get messy. > > Also, given that 0-ply rollouts are relatively fast, when playing against a > human - if you can wait a second or two, you can play using cubeful 0-ply. > Testing how good this is will be problematic. > > -Joseph > > > On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 09:23, Øystein Schønning-Johansen < > [email protected]> > wrote: > > > But let's chat about the idea instead. What will it actually mean to > > 'apply "AlphaZero methods" to backgammon.' ? > > > > AlphaZero (and AlphaGo and Lc0 and SugaR NN) is just more or less the > same > > thing as reinforcement learning in backgammon. So, from my understanding, > > it is rather AlphaZero, who has applied the backgammon methods. They are > > both the chess and go variants trains with reinforcement learning pretty > > much like the original GNU Backgammon, Jellyfish and Snowie. In Go they > had > > to make a move selection subroutine based on human play and then add MCTS > > to train. Also the neural networks are deeper and more complex. The nn > > inputs features are also so more complex and can to some extend resemble > > convolutions known from convolutional neural network (And that the inputs > > are not properly described in the high level articles.) > > > > Apart from that, it is actually same thing: Reinforcement learning. > > > > But how can we improve: We believe (at least I do) that the current state > > of backgammon bots are so strong that it plays close to perfect in > standard > > positions. It is in uncommon and long term plan positions (like deep > > backgames and snake rolling prime positions) bots still can improve. Let > me > > throw some ideas up in the air for discussion: > > > > Can we make a RL algorithm that is so fast that it can learn on the fly? > > Say we during play find a position where some indicator (that may be > > another challenge) indicates that this is a position that requires long > > term planning. If we then have the ability to RL train a neural net for > > that specific position, that could be an huge improvement in my opinion. > > (Lot's of details missing.) > > > > And then, could the evaluations be improved if we specialize neural > > networks in to specific position types, and then make a kind of nn > > selection system based on k-means of the input features. I tried that > many > > years ago with only four classes. Those experiments showed that it's not > > hopeless approach, and with faster computers it can easily create much > more > > than just four classes (fours was only the first number that popped into > my > > head those days) > > > > Then next idea: What about huge scale distributed rollouts? Maybe we > could > > have a system like BOINQ to do rollouts on the fly? I'm not sure how this > > should be used in a practical sense, and I'm not sure how hard it would > be > > to implement (with or without BOINQ framework) but I'm just kind of > > brainstorming here. > > > > -Øystein > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 6:47 PM Joseph Heled <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> I was intentionally rude because I thought his original post was > >> inappropriate. > >> > >> -Joseph > >> > >> On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 06:42, Ralph Corderoy <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Joseph, > >> > > >> > > I thought so. > >> > > > >> > > I had the same idea the day I heard they cracked go, but just saying > >> > > something is a good idea is not helpful at all in my book. > >> > > >> > I think you're wrong. And also a bit rude to boot. > >> > > >> > It's fine for Tim to suggest or ponder an idea to the list. It may > >> > encourage another subscriber, or draw out news of what a lurker has > been > >> > working on that's related. > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Cheers, Ralph. > >> > > >> > >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnubg/attachments/20191205/f92fd680/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 20:40:56 +0000 > From: Myshkin LeVine <[email protected]> > To: Superfly Jon <[email protected]> > Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: > < > ch2pr15mb3688dc8677ab1e126abf471ebf...@ch2pr15mb3688.namprd15.prod.outlook.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi Jon, > Perhaps you could also include build instructions for the Mac > in addition to Linux and Windows. I figured out how to fulfill the cglm > dependency, but I think many Mac users could not. I do not see cglm in > MacPorts, but it does have a formula for those Mac users who like Homebrew. > The 3D board seems to be working fine for me, with the exception that > clicking on the dice to end my turn has no effect, and I must instead use > use Control-F. > > Myshkin LeVine > > > On Dec 4, 2019, at 1:56 PM, Superfly Jon wrote: > > > My changes are still under development, the dependency with cglm will be > resolved in due course. I'll update the "INSTALL" file with more detailed > how-to build instructions for linux and windows shortly. > > > > Jon > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 09:40:48 +1300 > From: Joseph Heled <[email protected]> > To: Ingo Macherius <[email protected]> > Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: > <CAG8x8-1ULLS2164rwH8pSGBKFF= > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > What is the matter with you people? bug-gnubg is synonym with dev-gnubg. > > Perhaps it is time for me to stop being involved with GNUBG. Does not seem > people here are interested in doing anything constructive. If this is not > the case, prove me wrong. > > -Joseph > > On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 08:57, Ingo Macherius <[email protected]> wrote: > > > This is not a bug. While individual members of the gnubg team always had > > setups for dependency management under various IDEs and OSes, there > > never was a satisfying solution in the repository. There was a Linux > > package management HOWTO, but it's went away with the rest of the web > > pages. And no, automake and it's cryptic error message not really > > qualifies as a dependency management system. I'm a Java guy and used to > > tool based solutions such as maven or gradle. Picking and adding > > something similar suiteable for C, ideally something which works on all > > major OSes, would greatly improve the confusion you and everybody else > > starting to work with the code has to go through. > > > > Ingo > > > > Am 04.12.19 um 19:00 schrieb Joseph Heled: > > > And good riddance. This list is called bug-gnubg. > > > > > > -Joseph > > > > > > On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 06:59, Ralph Corderoy <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > >> Hi Joseph, > > >> > > >>> I was intentionally rude because I thought his original post was > > >>> inappropriate. > > >> How childish. We put up with your many posts detailing your failure > to > > >> compile from source when a quick Google would have led to the method > of > > >> using the package manager to install the build dependencies. No one > was > > >> rude. You got civil help. > > >> > > >> I've no time for such antics. This list has always been polite in my > > >> experience. I'm unsubscribing. > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Cheers, Ralph. > > >> > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnubg/attachments/20191205/fcef612b/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 09:48:19 +1300 > From: Joseph Heled <[email protected]> > Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: > < > cag8x8-17jj2g3n0x0-ehnnb1chch4n-uekmghrkyuoe+x5m...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Ralph was not cc'ed > > Subject: Re: current development > From: Joseph Heled <[email protected]> > To: Ingo Macherius <[email protected]> > Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="000000000000e96d5e0598e6d365" > > On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 09:44, Ralph Corderoy <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Joseph, please desist from CC-ing me. > > > > -- > > Cheers, Ralph. > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnubg/attachments/20191205/c2efdfaf/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 22:14:48 +0100 > From: Philippe Michel <[email protected]> > To: Russ Allbery <[email protected]> > Cc: Joseph Heled <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: <20191204211448.GA8359@genesis> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Tue, Dec 03, 2019 at 03:51:12PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > > > > Philippe Michel <[email protected]> writes: > > > > > Reasonably recent versions of gcc and clang have a feature (ifuncs) > that > > > should allow to to this in one single binary. I don't know how onerous > > > it would be at package building stage, but I think a few parts of > Linux, > > > for instance glibc, use that feature, so at least it wouldn't be > unknown > > > territory. > > > > Oh, interesting. Is this something that I can just enable with a > compiler > > flag, or does it need code support in gnubg? > > This would be mostly in gnubg's code. Maybe something would be needed at > configure stage as well. > > The post below shows a minimal example of how this is used: > https://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-help/2012-03/msg00209.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 22:28:03 +0100 > From: Philippe Michel <[email protected]> > To: Joseph Heled <[email protected]> > Cc: Russ Allbery <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: <20191204212803.GB8359@genesis> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 01:21:06PM +1300, Joseph Heled wrote: > > > Is that the right way to specify both? > > > > ./configure --enable-simd=avx --enable-simd=sse2 > > It wasn't expected to specify both :-). > > I just checked what it does: the second option overrides the first one, > so your example doesn't do what you hoped. > > Just use --enable-simd=yes, it will use avx if your computer supports it > (plus some sse in places where there is no avx implementation), else > sse2. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 10:31:44 +1300 > From: Joseph Heled <[email protected]> > To: Philippe Michel <[email protected]> > Cc: Russ Allbery <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: > < > cag8x8-3by+qvggpa-s5usavrq098v-9dtfqz51nbrce4vhs...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Thanks. will recompile. Also the other non-sse options should go somewhere > else, but I don't know where they should go in the debian build process. > > On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 10:28, Philippe Michel <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 01:21:06PM +1300, Joseph Heled wrote: > > > > > Is that the right way to specify both? > > > > > > ./configure --enable-simd=avx --enable-simd=sse2 > > > > It wasn't expected to specify both :-). > > > > I just checked what it does: the second option overrides the first one, > > so your example doesn't do what you hoped. > > > > Just use --enable-simd=yes, it will use avx if your computer supports it > > (plus some sse in places where there is no avx implementation), else > > sse2. > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnubg/attachments/20191205/b6184825/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 13:36:15 -0800 > From: Russ Allbery <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain > > Joseph Heled <[email protected]> writes: > > > Thanks. will recompile. Also the other non-sse options should go > > somewhere else, but I don't know where they should go in the debian > > build process. > > The override_dh_auto_configure target includes the invocation of > ./configure. > > -- > Russ Allbery ([email protected]) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 10:42:35 +1300 > From: Joseph Heled <[email protected]> > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: > < > cag8x8-1koju_epyecnd4jqnx7ysgeub4_fzvtzjjnye4vur...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 at 20:59, Joseph Heled <[email protected]> wrote: > > > An 8 "core" machine, i.e. fake intel count number > > > > $ grep -m1 '^model name' /proc/cpuinfo > > model name : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4810MQ CPU @ 2.80GHz > > > > in debian rules file: > > SSE = --enable-simd=avx --enable-simd=sse2 --enable-threads -with-gtk > > --with-board3d --with-python > > compiled with gcc (Ubuntu 8.3.0-6ubuntu1) 8.3.0 -O3 > > > > position id: 4NvBGECYr8ELAA:MBngAAAAIAAE > > > > rollout cube action: > > > > > So make this sse2. > > > > 8 threads: 93 seconds > > 4 threads: 100 seconds On stock debian: 111 seconds > > 2 threads: 172 seconds > > 1 thread: 312 > > > > with avx, 8 threads: 81 seconds and 99 seconds with 4 threads, so maybe a > small improvement, maybe not. > > > > -Joseph > > > > > > On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 at 20:29, Ralph Corderoy <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Joseph, > > > > > > > What we really need is someone with access to some computing power > > > > (aka grid) to run a set of reference positions - 0-ply cube decisions > > > > vs 2-ply, and see what the difference is. That would give a hint as > to > > > > what to do. > > > > > > How about reporting your > > > > > > grep -m1 '^model name' /proc/cpuinfo > > > > > > along with the stock Ubuntu package version's time on a reference > > > position when given 1, 2, ... threads. And then you're self-compiled > > > version for comparison, noting what you changed in debian/rules. > > > > > > It would be a start, and also offer some precision so if something is > > > awry then others on the list may have data to judge by. > > > > > > -- > > > Cheers, Ralph. > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnubg/attachments/20191205/80c4e2b4/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 23:04:00 +0100 > From: Philippe Michel <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: <20191204220400.GA44635@genesis> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 02:07:18PM -0500, Timothy Y. Chow wrote: > > > Also, it's my impression that many people *don't* think this is even a > > worthwhile idea to pursue. Backgammon is already "solved," is what they > > will say. It's true that "AlphaGammon" will surely not crush existing > > bots in a series of (say) 11-point matches. At most I would expect a > > slight advantage. But to me, that is the wrong way to look at the > issue. > > I would like to understand superbackgames for their own sake, even > though > > they arise rarely in practice. Furthermore, if we know that bots don't > > understand superbackgames, then the closer a position gets to being a > > superbackgame, the less we can trust the bot verdict. > > I'm not sure how related it may be, but there is a group of Greek > academics that have published some articles on their work on a bot, > Palamedes, that plays backgammon but also variants that have different > rules and starting positions and lead to positions that would be very > uncommon in backgammon. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 11:12:39 +1300 > From: Joseph Heled <[email protected]> > To: Philippe Michel <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected], "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: > < > cag8x8-1pgzx4z_puvq2ggnkdrg1spewk79dvjee0tviavf0...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > A link to something? article? software? did they use alpha-like strategies? > > -Joseph > > On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 11:04, Philippe Michel <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 02:07:18PM -0500, Timothy Y. Chow wrote: > > > > > Also, it's my impression that many people *don't* think this is even a > > > worthwhile idea to pursue. Backgammon is already "solved," is what > they > > > will say. It's true that "AlphaGammon" will surely not crush existing > > > bots in a series of (say) 11-point matches. At most I would expect a > > > slight advantage. But to me, that is the wrong way to look at the > > issue. > > > I would like to understand superbackgames for their own sake, even > > though > > > they arise rarely in practice. Furthermore, if we know that bots don't > > > understand superbackgames, then the closer a position gets to being a > > > superbackgame, the less we can trust the bot verdict. > > > > I'm not sure how related it may be, but there is a group of Greek > > academics that have published some articles on their work on a bot, > > Palamedes, that plays backgammon but also variants that have different > > rules and starting positions and lead to positions that would be very > > uncommon in backgammon. > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnubg/attachments/20191205/ba104667/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 11:23:04 +1300 > From: Joseph Heled <[email protected]> > To: Philippe Michel <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected], "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: > < > cag8x8-0+kbwyfq4sws_wjhpys7zond98+_7tsuau81esytz...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I googled and found this: > > https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01521393/document > > Seems very much like GNUBG, only a smaller net. No way to tell how it > compares to (say) GNUBG. > > -Joseph > > On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 11:12, Joseph Heled <[email protected]> wrote: > > > A link to something? article? software? did they use alpha-like > strategies? > > > > -Joseph > > > > On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 11:04, Philippe Michel <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 02:07:18PM -0500, Timothy Y. Chow wrote: > >> > >> > Also, it's my impression that many people *don't* think this is even a > >> > worthwhile idea to pursue. Backgammon is already "solved," is what > >> they > >> > will say. It's true that "AlphaGammon" will surely not crush existing > >> > bots in a series of (say) 11-point matches. At most I would expect a > >> > slight advantage. But to me, that is the wrong way to look at the > >> issue. > >> > I would like to understand superbackgames for their own sake, even > >> though > >> > they arise rarely in practice. Furthermore, if we know that bots > don't > >> > understand superbackgames, then the closer a position gets to being a > >> > superbackgame, the less we can trust the bot verdict. > >> > >> I'm not sure how related it may be, but there is a group of Greek > >> academics that have published some articles on their work on a bot, > >> Palamedes, that plays backgammon but also variants that have different > >> rules and starting positions and lead to positions that would be very > >> uncommon in backgammon. > >> > >> > >> > >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnubg/attachments/20191205/265dafd1/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 06:35:18 +0000 > From: Wayne Joseph <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Alphazero / Deepmind backgammon project > Message-ID: > <CAH= > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi Tim / Hi all, > > It might be worth reaching out to Jens Averkamp who I believe was in > contact with a Dev team working this avenue. > > I also tried to get in touch with Demis, CEO of Deepmind (who almost > certainly can play bg) a while ago, but I don't think my message completed > its intended journey to him (via his P.A). > > After seeing what Deepmind has done to publicize Go and StarCraft, I was > hoping the same might be possible for backgammon. Does anybody else fancy > seeing Mochy beat Deepmind? ;) > > Good luck! > > -- Sent from my Android phone > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnubg/attachments/20191205/2f5aab15/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 19:44:51 +1300 > From: Joseph Heled <[email protected]> > To: Wayne Joseph <[email protected]> > Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Alphazero / Deepmind backgammon project > Message-ID: > <CAG8x8-3GQqDSe= > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Sounds good, Wayne!! > > Personal opinion: Mochy will be lucky to win one match, ah-la Lee Sedol, if > matches are long enough :) > > -Joseph > > > On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 19:35, Wayne Joseph <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi Tim / Hi all, > > > > It might be worth reaching out to Jens Averkamp who I believe was in > > contact with a Dev team working this avenue. > > > > I also tried to get in touch with Demis, CEO of Deepmind (who almost > > certainly can play bg) a while ago, but I don't think my message > completed > > its intended journey to him (via his P.A). > > > > After seeing what Deepmind has done to publicize Go and StarCraft, I was > > hoping the same might be possible for backgammon. Does anybody else fancy > > seeing Mochy beat Deepmind? ;) > > > > Good luck! > > > > -- Sent from my Android phone > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnubg/attachments/20191205/f14abd8d/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 13:30:17 +0200 > From: Nikos Papachristou <[email protected]> > To: Joseph Heled <[email protected]> > Cc: Philippe Michel <[email protected]>, [email protected], > "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: > <CAPF31MRT= > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi everybody! > > You can view my research publications on backgammon variants at my website: > https://nikpapa.com , or alternatively you can download my PhD thesis > from: > https://www.didaktorika.gr/eadd/handle/10442/43622?locale=en > > My personal view on improving GNUBG: Why not try to "upgrade" your existing > supervised learning approach? There have been lots of advances in > optimization/regularization algorithms for neural networks in the past > years and it might be less demanding that trying a new RL self-play > approach from scratch. > > Regarding expected results, I also believe that backgammon bots are very > close to perfection and whatever improvements (from any approach) will be > marginal. > > > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 12:14 AM Joseph Heled <[email protected]> wrote: > > > A link to something? article? software? did they use alpha-like > strategies? > > > > -Joseph > > > > On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 11:04, Philippe Michel <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 02:07:18PM -0500, Timothy Y. Chow wrote: > >> > >> > Also, it's my impression that many people *don't* think this is even a > >> > worthwhile idea to pursue. Backgammon is already "solved," is what > >> they > >> > will say. It's true that "AlphaGammon" will surely not crush existing > >> > bots in a series of (say) 11-point matches. At most I would expect a > >> > slight advantage. But to me, that is the wrong way to look at the > >> issue. > >> > I would like to understand superbackgames for their own sake, even > >> though > >> > they arise rarely in practice. Furthermore, if we know that bots > don't > >> > understand superbackgames, then the closer a position gets to being a > >> > superbackgame, the less we can trust the bot verdict. > >> > >> I'm not sure how related it may be, but there is a group of Greek > >> academics that have published some articles on their work on a bot, > >> Palamedes, that plays backgammon but also variants that have different > >> rules and starting positions and lead to positions that would be very > >> uncommon in backgammon. > >> > >> > >> > >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnubg/attachments/20191205/0a61ede8/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 13:28:04 +0100 > From: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <[email protected]> > To: Nikos Papachristou <[email protected]> > Cc: Joseph Heled <[email protected]>, [email protected], > "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: > <CAOzpFnRQj7f7qpomYD9dNM3QPkjhHqLAKiQvtwQVocXn= > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I have tried some experiments, and it looks like the training dataset (for > contact positions) with the current input features, do indeed like some of > the more modern methods. Briefly summarized: > > Things that improves supervised learning on the dataset: > * Deeper nets, 5-6 hidden layers combined with ReLU activation functions. > * Adam (and AdamW) optimizer. > * A tiny bit of weight decay. > * Mini-batch training. > > Things that does not work: > * Dropout. > * PCA of inputs. > * RMSProp optimizer (About the same performance as SGD). > > I've tried training with Keras and on GPU's, and the training is really > fast. However a plain CPU implementation of modern neural network training > algorithms is actually not much slower for me. Also porting GPU code over > into the GNU Backgammon application might not be faster as a lot of cycles > will be used shuffling data back and forth between main memory and GPU > memory. > > So the process I ended up using was: > 1. Test out what works with Keras+GPU > 2. implement that working method in C code for CPU. > 3. Train NN with that code. > > I've only worked with the contact neural network, as I see some strange > issues with race dataset, and I think it require a re-rollout. > > -Øystein > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 12:38 PM Nikos Papachristou <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Hi everybody! > > > > You can view my research publications on backgammon variants at my > > website: https://nikpapa.com , or alternatively you can download my PhD > > thesis from: > > https://www.didaktorika.gr/eadd/handle/10442/43622?locale=en > > > > My personal view on improving GNUBG: Why not try to "upgrade" your > > existing supervised learning approach? There have been lots of advances > in > > optimization/regularization algorithms for neural networks in the past > > years and it might be less demanding that trying a new RL self-play > > approach from scratch. > > > > Regarding expected results, I also believe that backgammon bots are very > > close to perfection and whatever improvements (from any approach) will be > > marginal. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 12:14 AM Joseph Heled <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> A link to something? article? software? did they use alpha-like > >> strategies? > >> > >> -Joseph > >> > >> On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 at 11:04, Philippe Michel <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 02:07:18PM -0500, Timothy Y. Chow wrote: > >>> > >>> > Also, it's my impression that many people *don't* think this is even > a > >>> > worthwhile idea to pursue. Backgammon is already "solved," is what > >>> they > >>> > will say. It's true that "AlphaGammon" will surely not crush > existing > >>> > bots in a series of (say) 11-point matches. At most I would expect a > >>> > slight advantage. But to me, that is the wrong way to look at the > >>> issue. > >>> > I would like to understand superbackgames for their own sake, even > >>> though > >>> > they arise rarely in practice. Furthermore, if we know that bots > >>> don't > >>> > understand superbackgames, then the closer a position gets to being a > >>> > superbackgame, the less we can trust the bot verdict. > >>> > >>> I'm not sure how related it may be, but there is a group of Greek > >>> academics that have published some articles on their work on a bot, > >>> Palamedes, that plays backgammon but also variants that have different > >>> rules and starting positions and lead to positions that would be very > >>> uncommon in backgammon. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnubg/attachments/20191205/75b93a17/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 11:32:00 -0500 (EST) > From: "Timothy Y. Chow" <[email protected]> > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: current development > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Thu, 5 Dec 2019, Nikos Papachristou wrote: > > My personal view on improving GNUBG: Why not try to "upgrade" your > > existing supervised learning approach? There have been lots of advances > > in optimization/regularization algorithms for neural networks in the > > past years and it might be less demanding that trying a new RL self-play > > approach from scratch. > > > > Regarding expected results, I also believe that backgammon bots are very > > close to perfection and whatever improvements (from any approach) will > > be marginal. > > In order to determine whether a new network is doing better than the old > network, it helps to have examples of positions where the old network is > clearly playing poorly. Here's one example of a game that I played > against eXtreme Gammon where the bot made a lot of obvious blunders: > > http://timothychow.net/cg/Games/7pt2015-05-24e%20Game%202.htm > > For example, search for "10/8 6/4(3)". The bot's ridiculous play here > would not be among the top 50 plays of any halfway decent human player. > Admittedly this was XG but I would expect GNU to behave similarly, if not > in these specific positions then in similar ones. > > Playing around with positions like this will quickly disabuse anyone of > the illusion that "backgammon bots are very close to perfection." > > As I recall, in the past, people have tried specifically training neural > nets on positions like these, as well as "snake" positions where you have > to roll a prime for a long distance, and the problem was that it seemed to > degrade performance on other types of positions. It's possible that, as > Papachristou suggests, recent incremental improvements in regularization > algorithms might be good enough to overcome these difficulties. Anecdotal > evidence from Robert Wachtel's revised version of "In the Game Until the > End" suggests that Xavier was able to improve eXtreme Gammon's post-coup > classique play significantly, without a wholesale switch to modern deep > learning methods. > > Tim > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Bug-gnubg mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnubg > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Bug-gnubg Digest, Vol 201, Issue 5 > ***************************************** >
