On 02/27/2018 01:33 PM, Ivan Zaigralin wrote: > I realized that in order to make the web useful without > having to run nonfree software, we must *unscript* it. Fixing individual > pages/domains will not solve the problem posed by the disposable software;
in the 90s the web was mostly unscripted and it worked just fine but it was understandably quite static and not as pretty, flashy, eye-catching or dazzling enough to become the new latest and greatest entertainment and advertising platform that was all the rage during the "dotcom" days - i think the largest reason javascript got used then was for DHTML visual effects - then came the idea to script the content itself with AJAX SAAS calls - but those early DHTML visual effects can now be accomplished declaratively with CSS instead of programatically with javascript - so really, the prescription to remove javascript from the web is not as catastrophic as it may seem at first - mainly, what would be missing is remote calls to *who knows where* to update content in real-time; but the web could still look quite dazzling visually those aesthetic qualities are primarily what impresses upon users and not the AJAX updates; so most users would not "see" any difference - what they would notice is that certain services such as web VOIP and web games would starts requiring binary plug-ins such as flash again - namely, all things that are far more appropriate as desktop applications than something crammed into increasingly bloated web browsers - none of which are novel or irreplaceable - decent FOSS desktop applications already exist for all of those common casual-user oriented tasks and people would be quite satisfied using them if the web "apps" did not exist - but sadly, those services would probably just go back to using binary plug-ins such as flash; so users who want such things would probably notice no change at all in the absence of javascript today - CSS could make the page elements pretty, flash would script the behaviors and arbitrary network interactions behind-the-scene, and the trend toward browser-based "apps" would continue unimpeded - in fact if you can imagine all major browsers removing their javascript engines; then you should be able to imagine several vendors offering javascript engines as browser plug-ins immediately afterward; and it would only take a small number of the big playas in the webby game to simply force their hordes of users to use a javascript or flash plug-in or GTFO for the entire endeavor to be rendered pointless - and note that the javascript plug-ins are the preferable outcome rather then everything moving to binary form - all of which is possible neglecting to mention the up-and-coming "web-assembly" platform it strikes me as so odd when i hear sometimes people say something like: "what can i use for a matrix replacement?" - i can only roll back my eyes and smirk, when clearly it is matrix that is the "replacement" for a real desktop application; the sort of which has countless working and popular examples in existence for nearly 20 years before the matrix project began one might think that web developers would be more sensible in this respect, but no - i think most web developers would be quite happy if javascript was the only programming language on earth and chromium and firefox were the only desktop applications - or maybe every computer would be running chromeOS - wouldnt that be swell? - erm "convenient" that is a peculiarly unsavory inversion IMHO - it is inducing people (mobile users especially) to no longer be able to discern a desktop application running locally from a website "app" with the same apparent functionality running remotely - this is where my objection to javascript really begins - what is really implied when people favor web "app" is that people will no longer care if their software is some silly bird game written by a child that they randomly clicked on *some* website; or the skillfully crafted and well-tested work of an experienced professional, curated and distributed by a verifiable trusted source
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