Well, things seem to be progressing in that direction.
I am certain, also, that if things like that begin to materialise, individuals
like you and me will get enough emotional security to be able to tear ourselves
away briefly from the food baskets of expeditions to contribute our mite to
fieldwork!Or, indeed, we could carry sandwiches and borrow Linus' blanket for
the brief periods when we would do fieldwork, before we retured to the security
of the food and equipment.....
On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 12:15:14 +0530 wrote
>
Yes, thats correct.
I think Dr. Kunte is indeed planning on those lines.
mtDNA would be the ultimate signature !!!
There should be collective efforts by experts to replicate the work of Dr.
Harish Gaonkar for entire India.
I am sure Dr. Kumar Ghorpade will be the happiest person if this happens.
I will be more than happy to assist the experts with my time, whenever that
happens.
I am indeed talking about carrying food and their equipments in difficult
terrains :-)).
Kishen
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Peter Smetacek wrote:
Dear Kishen,
agree with what you say. What I meant about the species like hordonia/sandaka,
athamas /agraria is not that they cannot be distinguished, but that all field
ids and breeding records where the researcher competently identified the
species ACCORDING TO ACCEPTED KNOWLEDGE OF THE TIME and reported the
information, all that information is now uncertain with the realisation that
what was earlier athamas is actually two species, same for hordonia, etc.
Taxonomy progressed through the study of external physical features until the
beginning of the 20th century, when the study of genitalia served to
distinguish many species indistinguishable superficially. At present, mtDNA is
gaining increasing acceptance for distinguishing taxa, so there is no telling
which way the documentation of taxa is going to proceed. In such an event, it
is always better to keep the specimens one has bred, or to have the specimens
examined to report a local checklist, so that in the event of taxonomic
changes, matters can be reliably updated...one does not mean that one should
take every speimen that one sees, but individuals that contribute to scientific
knowledge should certainly be retained in a well maintained collection.
I refer, for example, to Dr. Kunte's recent record of a new palmfly for India,
published in Journal of Threatened Taxa: he actually held the specimen in his
hand, photographed it and released it. We do not have an example of that
species in any Indian collection. I feel that the specimen should have been
taken and deposited in a National Collection, eg., the National Forest Insect
Collection in Dehra Dun.
I realise that Dr. Kunte was simply keeping within the rules by not taking a
specimen within a protected area. However, I feel there is need for a change in
rules concerning protected areas, so that in the case of invertebrates, which
are largely unworked in India, accredited research workers like Dr. Kunte
should have the leeway or permission to take specimens of scientifically
important taxa which they might come across by chance in the course of their
study and deposit it with the officer in charge of the protected area, who
should in turn send it along to the Forest ResearchInstitue in Dehra Dun to be
included in the National Collection. Everyone would be well served that way...
On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:28:12 +0530 wrote
>
I totally agree. This is something that should be completely left to the
experts. When I say experts, I mean field entomologists who have permissions
for collection and those who know how to preserve those specimens
and who indeed have expertise in identifying them at the level of Genitalia or
say Genome.
In South India, where I visited many entomological departments, the
collections are not only incomplete, but very badly maintained and some of the
specimens are wrongly identified and many of them were not even identified !!!
Butterfly collection requires lot more dedication and passion and I certainly
don't think the general butterfly enthusiasts will be interested in this. Of
course, there will be many who will blatantly reject the idea of collection
without even realising the importance of it.
Although I totally agree that we should work towards creating a complete
well-maintained collection, I still do not agree that collection is the only
authentic way for identification. If you carefully observe any species in the
field for decent amount of time, you will see a pattern which will
differentiate it from other closer species, sub-species and races. And also
there will be some unique feature in their body as well. I mean assuming that a
particular sub-species or race separated out during evolution, it would have
got exposed to relatively different set of environment and this would reflect
both in their behavior and as some unique feature in their body. We should be
patient enough to recognize these subtle differences. But, yes this would take
lot more time to confirm/associate any unique behavior or feature with a
species, but it is not impossible.
So, a complete collection backed by lot of field studies would be key in
conserving those species.
Coming to the set of species that you mentioned, I am sure Dr. Kunte can
distinguish them with very high accuracy from their photos. He has done it for
Pantoporia hordonia and P. sandaka. I myself has sent couple of photos sometime
back to this group, on how we can easily distinguish Polyura athamas and P.
agraria. I also sometime back sent the keys for distinguishing Euploea core and
sylvester, again just using pattern of white spots on them. Although, I have
to catch and release hundreds of them to confirm this distinguising feature,
but it does exist.
Ideal situation would be to set up a small team of experts who visit all the
national parks and properly collect and ID and make it available to general
public. Once we have this in place, general butterfly enthusiasts can visit
these places and do lot of field studies to identify a unique behavior and
feature for each species. Once we have all this properly archived, we can do
away with collection.
I heard IISc is already doing DNA sequencing for butterflies. I wrote to one of
the students but did not get any reply.
In any case, the kind of website that I was talking about will still help at
large for less confusing species and definitely for my migratory ones!!!
Kishen
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Peter Smetacek wrote:
Kishen, taxonomy tends to change down the line: eg., it is nearly impossible to
separate information gathered for Pantoporia hordonia and P. sandaka; Polyura
athamas and P. agraria, Psilogramma menephron and P. increta, etc, etc. It is
always better to have specimens to examine. That way, no matter which way
taxonomy progresses, the data gathered is never lost. None of our national
collections of Lepidoptera is complete, or, indeed, near complete. Lots of work
needs to be done and to ensure scientific reliability, if it is specimen based,
it will be irrefutable. Photos are useful up to a point, but not in a country
where the Lepidoptera are as imperfectly known as ours...
On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 08:40:27 +0530 wrote
>
I think this project is restricted to Europe and UK.
It would be good if we can create an online database, where anyone can log in
and report their sightings. ( Of course these sightings should be backed up by
photos and also some expert to look into the data)
Probably once there is an establishment of genuinity of sightings by a
particular person, then the expert can relax submitting the photos for all the
species ( I mean except for the difficult to ID or rare ones).
On the long run it will help in better understading the distribution and
diversity of our regions.
I talked to couple of people but it did not work out.
Probably I will have this once I have my own website, at least for migratory
ones to start with.
Kishen
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 1:52 AM, Priyadarsanan Dharma Rajan wrote:
From: Entomology Discussion List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Neil Jones
Sent: 16 July 2010 22:21
To: [email protected]
Subject: David Attenborough will be doing it - will you?
From: Louise Keeling
Sent: 09 July 2010 16:34
To: All Staff
Subject: David Attenborough will be doing it - will you?
Butterflies are both beautiful and vital to the health of our environment.
Their survival is crucial yet they are in serious decline.
Be part of the big butterfly count from the 24th July to the 1st of August this
year and help us gather information to save them.
Just find a place where you might see butterflies, such as a garden or park,
and count the different butterflies you see in just 15 minutes. You can make
counts in several places during the week.
Submit your sightings at www.bigbutterflycount.org and you'll receive 10 per
cent off plants when you shop online at M&S. *
Butterflies are disappearing fast and we can’t help them without your support.
See the website for details.
Please forward this email to your friends of relatives - the more people who
join in, the more accurate a picture we can build of our changing butterflies.
Thank you
*Terms and conditions apply. See www.marksandspencer.com/offers for details.
Lou Keeling
Senior Publicity Officer
[email protected]
Join the big butterfly count and help us take the pulse of nature
24 July – 1 August at www.bigbutterflycount.org
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