Thanks a lot for the detailed response.  I've gotten most things to work as
I've been working with it for about a year (when I'm able) so I have the
luxury to spend a lot of time trying things out that professional developers
with timeframes might not have.  My only constraint is the wife and 3 kids
;)

You hit on a lot of topics in your response that have had my scratching my
head saying "boy I sure do have to code a lot" to get things to work how I
want them to.  I've often considered just dropping a framework all together
and started looking around.  I too integrated doctrine 1.2 with my ZF for
ORM, but it does add yet another layer on top of zend that I really don't
like.  I like to keep things as simple as possible.  I tell you what...I'll
give cake a try and see where I land...be patient with me if I ask stupid
questions, but note that I did figure out ZF so... hopefully I won't have to
many of those.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of #2Will
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:15 AM
To: CakePHP
Subject: Re: Cake PHP vs Zend

In my mind its no contest. Use Cake.

I have used zend framework quite a bit, and when i moved to cake it
was such a massive relief. It's just so much easier to do anything in
cake than ZF. ZF just seemed over complicated, awkward and confusing.
The documentation is horrid. Ok so there is a page in the docs for
most things, but they are always isolated. Code snippets that leave
you scratching your head as to where you are supposed to put the
code.  The community here is much more helpful too.

Cake seems to have a lovely blend of having a sensible opionion on
everything (convention over configuration) and being able to customise
everything when you need to.  You arn't held hostage by the framework
when the designer or client changes a requirement slightly that
doesn't fit cake well.  That stuff seems to happen every day with
zend.  Zend didn't even really have the basic application directories
set up untill 1.9, resulting in every tutorial on the web having a
different folder structure.  Yes loosely coupled sounds cool in a
feature list but in reality it just adds to ZF's horridiy(tm).

Also, with Zend - it felt like we where having to fill in the gaps
ourselves. an obvious example is the ORM - ZF's is useless.
Relationships didn't seem to work  / needed a massive amount of
setup.  We ended up integrating doctrine & although doctrine is
gorgeous that's a lot of work just to get off the ground and
inevitably didn't integrate as well as a native orm might.

Another area of ultimate head-ache is forms. Making forms exactly how
you want them is very difficult with zend.  You have to get your head
around "decorators" just to alter the mark-up away from dl/dt lists
and it isn't easy.  So that's databases and web forms failures in
zend.  don't know about everyone else but that's quite a big
percentage of my work output right there.

Iv'e just re-read your question and realised you arn't a full time
developer.  No wonder you are finding Zend hard. Kudos if you got much
working.  And the fact you are looking at other frameworks is a
classic ZF developer trait.  I used to do it all the time.  that
feeling that this can't be the best way to make the internet is not
paranoia, it is your sub-concious stating the obvious.

....and breathe.

will.






On Jun 8, 10:03 am, "Meroe Kush" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Folks,
>
> I'm facing a dilemma.  I'm not a programmer by profession and do this work
> as a hobby of mine.  I ask this question in all fairness and not a slide
> against any framework, but I am at a loss if I should stick with Zend or
> switch over to Cake.  
>
> The CRUD and full stack seems enticing.
>
> I'm working on what will be quite a large application with many modules,
> authentication, permissions, task tracking, risks, issues, administration
> (users, categories, organizations etc).
>
> If I ask the following question how would you respond?
>
> Why Cake over Zend or vice versa.  I know this is a loaded question and
one
> that has probably been asked, but....here is another shot at it.

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