So, it has occurred to me that I, myself, have left some groups because this discussion has gotten me very worked up, and here I am again, commenting on it. I apologize, I know I have been um ... out of sorts ... recently and have reasons that I suppose I should not share publicly. Anyway, unless someone specifically wants a reply from me, I will no longer post on the subject to save my health.
Ja et On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 9:20 PM, Janet Bertog via Callers < [email protected]> wrote: > Prelude: This post is tangential to the gypsy discussion and likely > controversial. If you are not interested, delete now. Moderators, if you > feel it is not an appropriate topic for this list tell me and I will cease > any future posts on the matter. > > So, let's pretend for a moment that gypsy has been proven to originate > from the term used to refer to the Roma (we all know that I do not believe > this), or that it doesn't matter what it's origin is, the fact that it does > have one meaning that refers to the Roma people is all that matters (we all > know that I also do not believe this). Let us also pretend for a minute > that it doesn't matter that in American English the term has come to mean a > free-spirited traveler. We are going to pretend that gypsy only is a > racial slur against Romani. > > First I will point out that Romani (Roma, I have seen both used, not sure > which is "most correct"), and Romani advocates, who feel that the word > Gypsy is a slur, always capitalize the word to enforce that it is a > reference to the ethnicity. So, first of all, if it not capitalized, does > that not mean that it does not refer to the ethnicity (I asked Carol this, > she did not respond). But that is not really what this post is about. > > So, this discussion about removing gypsy from our dance lexicon is due to > the fact that the Roma are holding on to their heritage and the use of the > word as a slur against them (yes, I recognize that in some places, the Roma > are still persecuted today). When I have asked Roma or Romani advocates > about the word, the response I usually get is something along the lines of > "well, what if the move was called the jew instead"? Well, I'm not jew, so > I don't really relate to that either. In fact, I one of the least racially > persecuted groups in existence it would seem, although I am female and > blond. But, I digress. Among the discussions, I have been informed that > Gypsy refers to the ethnicity, not the lifestyle and that the practice of > the Romani people to travel was forced upon them. However, I have read > that, in fact, many of the persecutions were just the opposite - forcing > them to settle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people#Persecutions). > > > Conversely, the ethnic term can be used as a slur. For example: > > jew - someone who is stingy > polish - a stupid person > > So, every single person in North America is an immigrant (yes, even the > "Native Americans, although much earlier than others). Every single > person's ancestor who moved to America came to America for a reason. Some > were forced (such as slaves) but many came here to escape what they were > leaving behind and to hopefully provide a better life for their families > and themselves. So, why is it then that so many racial groups who move to > America to escape their history, choose to also hold on to their history? > This is not just Roma, and it is, oddly enough, not all races. Very few > Germans or English in America refer to themselves as Germans or English (in > Cincinnati we have an Oktoberfest every year, owing to the large number of > people of German descent, but for 360 days of the year, these people are > American). If these people moved to America, why are they not just > Americans? Why are they holding on to an ethnic past? When I ask a Roma > why they use the word Gypsy to refer to themselves, the most common answer > I get is "people know the word Gypsy, but do not know what a Roma is". So, > if people do not even know what a Roma is, how can they be persecuting > them? If people who move to America want to be American, why do they hold > on to their ethnicity and continue to be offended by words that refer to > that ethnicity (this is a genuine question, I cannot at all relate to this > and so it makes no sense to me). This is not just the Roma, any group of > people who come to America and yet hold on to their ethnic traditions do > not make a lot of sense to me, especially if they are 2nd, 3rd, 4th or > more generation Americans who have never even been to the place of origin > for their ethnicity. > > According to the US Census, for the first time in 2000 a significant > number of people responded to the question about ancestry by stating that > they were American jumped from 12.4 million in 1990 to 20.2 million in 2000 > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_ethnicity). In the most recent > census report on the census page ( > http://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?pid=ACS_14_5YR_B04004&prodType=table) > the top groups of identified ancestry in the United States was: > > American 20 million > German 15 million (slurs include boche due to the stereotype of germans > being hard-headed, Fritz, Huns meaning savage and ruthless, Jerry, Kraut > from saurkraut, squarehead from the stereotype of the shape of their heads) > English 9 million (slurs include Gringo, Pom, Pommie, etc) > Irish 9 million (bog irish refrerring to a low class Irish, Dogan possibly > from Dugan - an Irish surname, Mick, Paddy - which has been embraced by > Irish even though it was meant to be derogatory, Pikey - an irish travel > like gypsy, tinker - an irish traveler like a gypsy, wigger - also used to > refer to people who might be called "white trash" or "rednecks") > Italian 7 million (slurs include dago, eyetie, greaseball, Guido - an > American Italian, Guinea - referring to the color of their skin, Swamp > Guinea) > European 3 million > Polish 3 million (slurs include Polak, and in fact referring to someone as > polish is often a slur in itself) > Subsaharan African 2.4 million (lots, most of you know) > West Indian 2 million (this is a lot of different nations, so it is hard > to look up) > Scottish 1.7 million (jock - most of us do not consider jocks derogatory, > Sawny or Sandy, Teuchter, and Tinker is also used in Scotland) > Norwegian 1.5 million (surprisingly none were listed) > Scotch-Irish 1.4 million (this is a mixed ancestry, so slurs of both > Scottish and Irish origin could refer to them) > Dutch 1 million (cheesehead, frog - as a stereotype of being marsh > dwellers, Yankee originally referred to Dutch settlers in America, > Russian 1 million (katsap, Moskal, russian pig) > Swedish almost 1 million > (reference for ethnic slurs: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs). It is true that > most of these words are not used in the English language, but who is going > to stop have kraut on their sausage because it is an ethnic slur?) > > Romani are not reported, > likely grouped as "other", but other sources indicate there are > approximately 1 million Romani in America today. I provide this list to > point out that, with one exception, almost no one on this list is offended > by people calling them by their ethnicity, or terms referring to their > ethnicity and, in fact, more and more people are leaving their ancestry in > the past and accepting that they are just American. > > So, why should Roma people be allowed to claim the word gypsy and declare > it a slur against them, when it is very clear that, especially in America, > it is rarely intended to be a slur, since most people just think Roma are > Americans and do not use the word to refer to the Roma people? > > And in regards to "how would you feel if ...", if a move was called a > blond because you walked around in a silly, disoriented fashion, I would > laugh and wonder why we have such a chaotic dance move in contra dance - oh > right, those are mixers. If I ever called mixers, I would start saying > "blond with your partner around the room and find another couple", but I > don't, because I hate mixers). > > Janet > > > On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Lindsay Morris via Callers < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> >> I'm about to leave this list because I'm so appalled at the amount of >> time spent on this discussion. So many smart, good people: surely we all >> have something better to do? >> >> >> On Friday, January 22, 2016, via Callers <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Honestly, it will be next December when I sing Christmas carols again :-) >>> >>> > On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:34, Aahz Maruch via Callers < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> > >>> >> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016, via Callers wrote: >>> >> >>> >> I disagree. If it is fair to condemn a word despite widespread >>> >> ignorance of its racist etymology (such as the very real problem >>> >> with the verb "gyp"), then the inverse must be true: it is fair to >>> >> exonerate a word despite widespread ignorance of its non-racist >>> >> etymology (e.g., niggardly). That a word falsely gets attributed to >>> >> a category in which it doesn't belong is irrelevant. If two separate >>> >> meanings/derivations converge to an identically spelled modern word, >>> >> I don't believe the innocent word (when used in its original context) >>> >> deserves to be written off. Let us truly abide by what you claim to >>> >> support: its current use *is* relevant. >>> > >>> > Let me know the next time you use "gay" to mean something roughly >>> similar >>> > to "happy" or "joyful", but for which there is no direct substitute. >>> > Despite my support for queer rights (given that two of my partners are >>> > bisexual, among other reasons), that's the one real loss I still feel. >>> > -- >>> > Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 >>> http://rule6.info/ >>> > <*> <*> <*> >>> > Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Callers mailing list >>> > [email protected] >>> > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >> >> >> -- >> -------------------- >> Lindsay Morris >> CEO, TSMworks >> Tel. 1-859-539-9900 >> [email protected] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > >
