Phor-own Jayakhmer, First of all please allow me to address you as "phor-own", since, like you, I believe I'm older than you.
> Let me first respond by thanking you for taking time to go through my > op-ed piece. You have posted many interesting and legitimate > questions related to the KR and Vietnam. And I thank you again for > asking those questions. You're welcome. > With your permission, let ‘s agree to disagree on some of the nuances > and the interpretation of the war and focus, as you have stated, on > the presence and the future. It's normal that we sometimes have to agree to disagree. Right, we have to focus on the present & the future. > Before getting into this discussion, I want to let you know of my > assumptions of you. I assume the followings: I assume that you are > Cambodian [I am a bit jealous here because you were in Saigon while I > was suffering under the Khmer Rouge regime], that you love Cambodia as > much as I do, that you are older than I am, that you are independent > politically, and that the reason you participate in this discussion > because you want, as I do, to share ideas, to enhance our > understanding, and hopefully to help the cause for improving democracy > for our country. Wow, all of your assumptions are correct. Just 1 thing: I'm only 98%, not 100%, sure that I'm older than you. As for my living in Saigon, my sympathy for you for having suffered the Khmer Rouge regime for so long. I lived under their regime too, but only for 4 months, from Apr to Aug 1975. > Here is your question I want to answer [I learned this trick from Sara > Palin during the debate- answer only what you want to answer]: > > “For the CPP, why should it change its leader (I believe you mean > "the > same leader" when you say "the same candidate") when that leader > keeps > winning??” > > Since Cambodian people voted for parties not for individuals, one > cannot direct correlation. The party elects candidate for the > office. That is why I said candidate instead of leader. I am > consistent to point out my dissatisfaction with the opposition > parties’ leadership. Here again, I am not pointing out individuals. I see. I believe you that the Cambodian people vote for parties, not for individuals, as in Canada people also vote for parties, not for individual candidates. I also wish that the Cambodian political system has a strong opposition, as a check & balance for the government. > In a broader sense, speaking as an independent, I am completely > dumbfounded that Cambodia can only come up with the same individuals > election after election. For any giving issue that are being > discussed, I can predict the kind of response from CPP, and can safely > predict what the opposition leaders would response. It is the same > old thing time after time. Yeah, that's very frustrating. > I have a strong conviction that Cambodia deserves much better than > that. This is why I am advocating for changes, I am advocating for > term limits, I am advocating for fresh air with different approaches > to solving problems, and with different ideas to tackle our national > issues. Right. I'm also advocating for term limits. I mentioned in my previous post that I agree with you on this issue. Staying in power too long may spoil an otherwise good person & may transform him/her into a dictator. Examples of this phenomenon in the world at large abound. Cambodia also has her own old example: king Sihanouk. > I believe that there are enough Cambodians who are smart, talented, > and capable of putting our heads together to solve our problems. That > is why I am advocating for equal opportunity to participate in the > process. There are smart and capable people in both parties- CPP and > SRP. I also agree with you on this issue. ============================== One of the pressing present Cambodia-Vietnam issues is the large number of Vietnamese immigrants in Cambodia. According to hear-say, there are 3 or 4 millions of them. Cambodia has a population of about 14 million. Thus that 3 or 4 million is a relatively huge number. There'll be problem if the number of Vietnamese immigrants is close to or is equal to or exceeds the number of native Cambodians. I urge the Cambodian government to stop the Vietnamese immigration, & to repatriate those who came illegally. Regards, Soriya On Dec 24, 12:46 pm, Jayakhmer <[email protected]> wrote: > Lauk Soriya, > > Let me first respond by thanking you for taking time to go through my > op-ed piece. You have posted many interesting and legitimate > questions related to the KR and Vietnam. And I thank you again for > asking those questions. > > Having said that, I found my self in a predicament here. If I answer > all of your questions, I put myself exactly where I do not want to be > that is to get bogged down in the debate about the war – a situation I > try to avoid by writing this piece that is to move beyond the debate > of the war. > > With your permission, let ‘s agree to disagree on some of the nuances > and the interpretation of the war and focus, as you have stated, on > the presence and the future. > > Before getting into this discussion, I want to let you know of my > assumptions of you. I assume the followings: I assume that you are > Cambodian [I am a bit jealous here because you were in Saigon while I > was suffering under the Khmer Rouge regime], that you love Cambodia as > much as I do, that you are older than I am, that you are independent > politically, and that the reason you participate in this discussion > because you want, as I do, to share ideas, to enhance our > understanding, and hopefully to help the cause for improving democracy > for our country. > > Here is your question I want to answer [I learned this trick from Sara > Palin during the debate- answer only what you want to answer]: > > “For the CPP, why should it change its leader (I believe you mean > "the > same leader" when you say "the same candidate") when that leader > keeps > winning??” > > Since Cambodian people voted for parties not for individuals, one > cannot direct correlation. The party elects candidate for the > office. That is why I said candidate instead of leader. I am > consistent to point out my dissatisfaction with the opposition > parties’ leadership. Here again, I am not pointing out individuals. > > In a broader sense, speaking as an independent, I am completely > dumbfounded that Cambodia can only come up with the same individuals > election after election. For any giving issue that are being > discussed, I can predict the kind of response from CPP, and can safely > predict what the opposition leaders would response. It is the same > old thing time after time. > > I have a strong conviction that Cambodia deserves much better than > that. This is why I am advocating for changes, I am advocating for > term limits, I am advocating for fresh air with different approaches > to solving problems, and with different ideas to tackle our national > issues. > > I believe that there are enough Cambodians who are smart, talented, > and capable of putting our heads together to solve our problems. That > is why I am advocating for equal opportunity to participate in the > process. There are smart and capable people in both parties- CPP and > SRP. > > Let me stop here. > > Respectfully yours, > > Jay > > On Dec 24, 3:52 am, Soriya <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Ref:http://groups.google.com/group/camdisc/browse_thread/thread/5e9eb2145... > > > Jayakhmer, > > > > The war of 1979 and its aftermath generate this lingering > > > question whether the war was an invasion or liberation. > > > The war was both an invasion & a liberation, or, more precisely, an > > invasion & a rescue. Vietnam invaded Pol Pot's Cambodia. It had the > > right to do so because the 2 countries were in war. The liberation or > > more precisely the rescue of the Cambodian people from the genocide by > > the bloody hands of Pol Pot & the Khmer Rouge were a by-product of the > > invasion. Although it was a by-product, it was a liberation or more > > precisely a rescue nonetheless. What would happen to Cambodia if > > Vietnam hadn't invaded?? A Cambodia with a population of less than a > > million all of whom are illiterate?? You bet!! > > > Of the following 2 options, which one would you choose?? > > > 1) Vietnam invaded Pol Pot's Cambodia, thus as a by-product > > ended his killing spree of the Cambodian people, & withdrew its > > troops from Cambodia 10 years later, > > > 2) Vietnam didn't invade Pol Pot's Cambodia, & thus Pol Pot & Co > > continued their massacre of the Cambodian people. > > > > Can we move beyond this debate? I think we can and we > > > should. > > > The Khmer Rouge & their sympathizers here in CamDisc will never move > > beyond this debate. They want & are trying to revenge Vietnam for > > ending their reign of terror. > > > > It would be easy to decide if the warring parties were all foreign > > > forces against Cambodian’s. The complexity increases > > > exponentially when Cambodians collaborated with the invasion > > > forces. Battalions of the Khmer Resistance Force of the United > > > Front for National Salvation of Kampuchea (UFNSK) fought side > > > by side with the Vietnamese forces. > > > The UFNSK were Khmer Rouge factions who opposed the genocide. The > > opportunity arrived for them to rescue the Cambodian people when the > > Vietnam/Khmer Rouge war broke out. Who else can they ask for help to > > rescue the Cambodian people?? They knew that for Vietnam it was > > Vietnam's interest that was the most important. But again, who else > > would come to save the Cambodian people?? The Thais?? They treated the > > Cambodian refugees in Thailand as street dogs!! Can you rely on > > them?? > > > > Was it an invasion or a liberation? > > > It was both an invasion & a liberation, or more precisely an invasion > > & a rescue. > > > > To Vietnam it was a conquest and an invasion. It was Vietnam’s > > > Machiavellian approach to settling disputes between its weaker > > > neighbors. What were border skirmishes between the former > > > allies during the Vietnam War against the U.S. became a > > > full-blown war between Vietnam and the Democratic Kampuchea > > > (DK) as the two nations deeply divided between the Soviet and > > > the Chinese camp. > > > Pol Pot, emboldened by his then so far success in his efforts to try > > to wipe out the Cambodian nation from the face of the earth without > > any resistance from the Cambodian people, didn't agree to Vietnam's > > request for negotiations to end the conflict. He even "invaded" > > Vietnamese villages along the border & massacred 1,000s of innocent > > Vietnamsese civilians. > > > What do you expect?? Do you expect the Vietnamese to sit still & wait > > for the Khmer Rouge to come to cut off their heads?? > > > What about you, if you're in war with Vietnam & you're stronger than > > it, wouldn't you invade it to try to end the war?? > > > > In my mind, the war would have been a liberation if it was > > > conceived and planned by the leadership of UFNSK. The UFNSK > > > was promulgated as a resistance force in Snoul, Kratie on > > > December 2, 1978 by which time the Vietnamese generals > > > had meticulously planned the war, and the preparations for war > > > were already completed. While it is conceivable that the > > > Vietnamese generals may have consulted with its Cambodian > > > counterparts, the records, thus far, showed that the > > > Vietnamese generals were the brains behind the invasion. > > > If the Vietnamese generals hadn't consulted with the UFNSK, what would > > you do?? They were in war against Pol Pot's Cambodia, if they hadn't > > consulted with Pol Pot's Cambodian opponents, what would you do?? They > > were in war against Pol Pot's Cambodia, who says they had to consult > > with Pol Pot's Cambodian opponents?? > > > > In “ The Tale of the Five Generals,” Pribbenow II described the > > > war planning and execution in breath taking details. “The > > > Vietnamese army spent all of 1978 drafting and training new > > > recruits, calling up reservists, rebuilding under strength units, > > > and converting military ‘economic construction’ groups back into > > > regular combat units.” > > > That's right. At that time I lived in Saigon. I heard that the > > Vietnamese government even recruited the former soldiers of the > > "ancient" regime to go to fight the Khmer Rouge. How about ther Khmer > > Rouge?? Oh yeah, they didn't recruit, they only killed. How "smart"!! > > > > The war was scheduled to begin on January 1,1979. The KR > > > made a preemptive move by attacking Vietnam on December 21 > > > and 22 of 1978. The Vietnamese and UFNSK force responded > > > and capture Phnom Penh on January 7, 1979. > > > See, how "intelligent" the Khmer Rouge leaders were!! > > > > The Khmer Rouge’s systematic killing of its citizens made an > > > invasion a welcome relief for many Cambodians. > > > Not just for "many" Cambodians, it was for ALL non-Khmer-Rouge > > Cambodians. > > > > On the one hand, the invasion stopped the killing. Without the > > > invasion, the alternative could have been very gloom for many > > > Cambodians. Clearly, the U.S. could not have rescued > > > Cambodians from the KR – the Vietnam War was too fresh for > > > the U.S to return to the region; the Soviet Union was already > > > Vietnam’s staunchest ally; and China supported the KR. > > > That's right. > > > > On the other hand, the invasion has been a constant source of > > > criticism and mistrust for the current government many of whose > > > members served in the UFNSK that became the government of > > > Cambodia after the 1979 invasion. > > > The criticism is rooted in 2 sources: 1) the Khmer Rouge themselves, & > > 2) racial hatred. > > > Number 1 is understandable. For number 2, it's very hard to educate > > the Khmers. It's virtually impossible to make them understand that the > > past is the past, that in the past the Vietnamese were bad to the > > Khmers and the Khmers were also bad to the Vietnamese, that it's ok & > > even good that they should look back at it to learn from it but > > shouldn't live in it, that now is the present & thus that they should > > take the present conditions into consideration. > > > It's even impossible to convince them that had Vietnam not invaded Pol > > Pot's Cambodia, Pol Pot & Co would have eliminated all the > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cambodia Discussion (CAMDISC) - www.cambodia.org" group. This is an unmoderated forum. Please refrain from using foul language. Thank you for your understanding. Peace among us and in Cambodia. 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