Earl's got a really good couple of points here, Bob. First of you, you were right when you suggested that ascenders will chew up the outer cover-cavers tend to use ascenders like the Frog more so than 'climbers, since the climbers are out to CLIMB, not shinny up a rope; and cavers tend to use different ropes than climbers or sailors; they want ropes with zero-ZERO!-stretch because in a fall, there's usually a hard floor below them at a distance they know precisely, and they don't want their rope to stretch and let them hit it. Point is that caver ropes have a slick hard cover that handles huge amounts of abrasion; most of our halyards have a better 'hand' so they can work better with winches, clutches, and camcleats. So using a separate line is far better than using a halyard-but you can use a halyard to pull your climbing line up the mast.
Earl also points out to have the climbing line taut for ease of climbing. On a boat, this is important; the mast isn't a stable tie-off point in a rolling sea or even in harbor waves. It's different on the rocks; the Frog and the Ropewalker work just fine whether the line is taut or not, and they're usually not. Earl talks about the Swiss Girdle-it does give the same support points and costs little or nothing, but I've been tied into them and I've been tied into a number of different climbing harnesses, and there's no comparison in comfort. You'll be really happy you bought the harness you did; it's great. And it has gear loops all around. But when Earl mentioned using a low-tech harness replacement, it occurred to me that there are also a couple of knots that are specifically designed to work as ascenders and descenders. If you get to REI or a a good climbing studio, I'd suggest you buy a book on climbing-kinda interesting even if you don't do it, and it will have a lot of info on ropes and knots and technique. And in there you should find info on these knots. I can't recall the names, but they're named after famous mountaineers. And the advantage is that anyone can rig them from a bit of loose rope to work on any rope you've got that goes to the mast-for example, the one halyard you've got that hasn't jumped off track in a knockdown-without doing any damage to the halyard. I'm expecting that we could use one of them for each leg and make a Ropewalker, or we could tie one to a chest harness and one to a doubled foot loop and make a Frog. For what it's worth, too: Bob, you mentioned the Frog seems simpler but more work. I have a different opinion, but it's my opinion from my experience and I haven't used either on the mast; I've only used them to go up 60 foot climbs at the gym while hanging off free ropes tied to the ceiling. I found the Frog was easier because both legs were always working together and it was a lot faster to learn, and I liked it because both my feet were always at the same height so it seems it would be better for work on a mast. I mean, you aren't always going to the mast truck-sometimes you're inspecting or painting or cleaning out the track or relamping the spreader lights or. My three cents' worth, Dave Shaddock (and I have mast steps, staggered, made from carbon fiber) From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of el sailor Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:30 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: catalina27-talk: bosun's chair alternative On Nautidog, I use a system consisting of pieces purchased to do the work. I have 2 ascenders, a line which I cleat off at the marked position, then haul up the free end with the halyard. I winch the halyard until it is two blocked -- trying to get as much of the stretch out as possible. A.) The top of the line needs to be as close to the top as possible to allow work on the top. B.) The climbing line needs to be very taut -- for ease of climbing. My seat was, until recently, a line tied into a knot called a "Swiss Girdle". It gave/gives the same support points as the seat harness' sold for climbing purposes and is more easily adjusted. A figure 8 ring is tied into the girdle as the 'biner point for the 'upper' ascender. The foot line consists of a double bowline at one end (for the feet) with the bitter end attached to the 'lower' ascender. Then it is only a matter of attaching the upper ascender, sitting down in the 'seat' and attaching the lower ascender. Then stand and raise the upper. Sit, lift my legs and raise the lower. Repeat as necessary. The 'girdle' was taught in the military as the 'seat harness' in the early '70s. Still works, and when it becomes frayed or worn, I just grab another piece of line. Haven't had to climb the mast during inclement weather..... Not sure if this is a lucid explanation. Been doing it for so long, I may not have included an explanation which would make it crystal clear. All the best, Earl #3188 s/v Nautidog ----- Original Message ---- From: Art Snapper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:39:46 PM Subject: Re: catalina27-talk: bosun's chair alternative I use a Topclimber, it works ok. It does allow you to get close enough to the top of the mast to work on things like the windex. Art On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 3:12 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thanks Dave. My research over the past two days tells me that 1) don't use a boat halyard as these ascenders eat throught the outer rope (Of course, I don't think anyone goes up their mast often enough to make that truly a problem) and 2) the frog system uses less parts (so less expensive) than the ropewalker/ATN but uses more effort than the ropewalker. Frog system is $210 at GGG and $177 (minus harness, about $50) at Kartsports. I haven't checked REI yet (physical store is not very close) or Moosejaw (physical store is 5 miles away). Bob -------------- Original message -------------- From: "David Shaddock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Bob, here's an excerpt from a Cruising World post that describes a home-assembled Frog system. By the way, the ATN is definitely the GGG's Ropewalker system, but people say it's built of inferior materials at a higher price (although it includes a hard board chair). Some suggest just going to a local climbing studio and buying a couple of Petzl ascenders and building your own-which could be done for either a Ropewalker or a Frog system. Myself? I prefer the Frog-you use both legs at once and you're always balanced. Excerpt below: My son is a mountain climber and gave me 2 Gibb ratchets. They are like a cam cleat (but obviously safer and a bit more sophisticated). They cost $40 apiece. The first thing you do is attach the main halyard to the base of the mast and tighten it bar-hard. Attach the 2 cleats to the halyard, one lower than the other. Attached to the top cleat is a climbing harness or bosun's chair. Attached to the lower cleat is line with 2 foot-loops. Operation: STEP 1 - You simply sit on the bosun's chair and slide the lower cleat up until it hits the bottom of the upper cleat. This can be done because there is no weight on the foot straps. STEP 2 - stand up (which takes weight off the bosun's chair) and slide the upper cleat up the halyard. STEP 3 - repeat STEP 1. I have a 62-foot mast and go up and down it easily to spray my sail-track, inspect shrouds, or do other maintenance. They can be purchas ed at REI or any mountain shop. ... The gibb ascender is "cleat-like". One end of the cleat is a jaw and the other end is a lever. When you want to come down you lift the lever which withdraws the jaw. This can only be done when there is no load on that particular ascender. If the ascender is loaded (weight on) then it is "impossible" to lift the lever. I use 2 ascenders, my harness is attached to the top one and a "texas tee" foot strap is attached to the lower ascender. Advice from Al Hatch says to run a safety strap from the harness to the lower ascender also. From:[email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 12:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: catalina27-talk: bosun's chair alternative I have ordered a petzl-corax climing harness to replace my (recalled) buson's chair. Apparently some of you are knowledgable about climbing. How does the GGG (Gonzo Guano Gear) Frog system compare to Petzl Frog Ascending system, the rope walking system and ATN Topclimber? I suspect the Topclimber is the marine version of the rope walking system, but don't know. The ATN Topclimber is about $324, the Petzl Frog System is $177.50 at kartsports.com (but needs a harness, which I now have). Bob Mann
