On Thu, May 9, 2024, 5:39 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> Without doing the research before asking, there was the UCSD p-System
> Pascal for IBM PC which came out very early in the history of the IBM PC.
> It was not very popular. The SAGE II that had native Pascal (68000) was
> not a popular machine. Waterloo Pascal on the SuperPet....Pascal never
> really made it on the microcomputer platform did it?
>
Not until TurboPascal... But it was only a few years until C emerged from
the language "street fight" as top dog... depending on what the universe of
microcomputers we're talking about.
Warner
Bill
>
> On Thu, May 9, 2024, 2:07 AM david barto via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org
> >
> wrote:
>
> > At Ken Bowles retirement from UCSD (Ken was the lead of the UCSD Pascal
> > Project) he related a story that IBM came to UCSD after being ‘rejected’
> by
> > DR to see if the Regents of the University would license UCSD Pascal (the
> > OS and the language) to IBM for release on the new hardware IBM was
> > developing. The UC Regents said ’no’.
> >
> > He was quite sad that history took the very different course.
> >
> > David
> >
> > > On May 3, 2024, at 6:30 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > PL/M (think "PL/1") was a high level programming language for
> > microprocessors.
> > >
> > > CP/M was also briefly called "Control Program and Monitor"
> > > It was written by Gary Kildall. (May 19, 1942 - july 11, 1994)
> > >
> > > Gary taught at Navy Postgraduate School in Monterey.
> > > He took a break in 1972, to complete his PhD at University of
> Washington.
> > >
> > > He wrote 8008 and 8080 instruction set simulators for Intel, and they
> > loaned him hardware.
> > >
> > > In 1973? he wrote CP/M.
> > > He offered it to Intel, but they didn't want it, although they marketed
> > the PL/M.
> > >
> > > He and his wife started "Intergalactic Digital Research" in Pacific
> > Grove. Later renamed "Digital Research, Inc."
> > >
> > > CP/M rapidly became a defacto standard as operating system for 8080 and
> > later Z80 computers.
> > >
> > > In the late 1970s, when CP/M computers were available with 5.25"
> drives,
> > and there were hundreds, soon thousands of different formats, I chatted
> > with Gary, and pleaded with him ot create a "standard" format for 5.25".
> > > His response was a very polite, "The standard format for CP/M is 8 inch
> > single sided single density."
> > > I pointed out that formats were proliferating excessively.
> > > His response was a very polite, "I understand. Sorry, but the standard
> > format for CP/M is 8 inch single sided single density."
> > >
> > >
> > > In 1980? IBM was developing a personal computer. (y'all have heard of
> > it) One of the IBM people had a Microsoft Softcard (Z80 plus CP/M) in his
> > Apple. IBM went to Microsoft, to negotiate BASIC for the new machine,
> and
> > CP/M.
> > >
> > > Bill Gates explained and sent them to Digital Research.
> > >
> > > When the IBM representatives arrived, Gary was flying his plane up to
> > Oakland to visit Bill Godbout. He hadn't seen a need to be present, and
> > assumed that Dorothy would take care of the [presumably completely
> routine]
> > paperwork. While visiting Bill godbout, and delivering some software was
> > important, it WAS something that a low level courier could have done.
> > >
> > >
> > > There was a little bit of a culture clash.
> > > The IBM people were all in identical blue suits.
> > > The DR people were in sandals, barefoot, shorts, t-shirts, braless
> > women, with bicycles, surfboard, plants and even cats in the office,
> > >
> > > The IBM people demanded a signed non=disclosure ageement before
> talking.
> > Dorothy Kildall refused.
> > >
> > > When Dorothy got Gary on the phone, it is unreliably reported that he
> > said, "well, let them sit on the couch and wait their turn like the rest
> of
> > the customers."
> > >
> > > It is also been said that DR people upstairs saw the IBM people
> marching
> > up, and thought that it was a drug raid. I have stood in that bay window
> > overlooking the front door, and can believe that.
> > >
> > > IBM chose to not do business with DR and went back to Microsoft.
> > > When billg was unable to convince them that Microsoft was not in the
> > operating system business, Microsoft went into the operating system
> > business. They bought an unlimited license to QDOS (Tim Paterson's work
> at
> > Seattle Computer Products). They also hired Tim Paterson.
> > >
> > > DR was working on CP/M-86, but it was a ways off.
> > > Paterson had written QDOS ("Quick and Dirty Operating System") as a
> > placeholder to be able to continue development while waiting for CP/M-86
> > > We've mentioned before, that Tim Paterson got the idea for the
> directory
> > structure from Microsoft Standalone BASIC. As Chuck pointed out, that
> was
> > not a new invention, merely a choice of which way to do it.
> > >
> > > billg knew how to deal with officious managers. It is unreliably said
> > that he told the Microsoft people, "Everybody who does not own a suit,
> stay
> > home tomorrow!"
> > >
> > > IBM insisted that Micorsoft beef up security. window shades, locks on
> > doors that normally weren't, locks on file cabinets, etc.
> > > It is unreliably said that to throw off anyboy who heard about it, that
> > Microsoft referred to the IBm project as "Project Commodore"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > dr continued to sell CP/M.
> > > When the 5150/:PC was ready, IBM announced it with PC-DOS, which was a
> > renaming of MS-DOS,renaming 86-DOS, renaming QDOS.
> > >
> > > If I recall correctly theprice was $40 (or maybe $60?)
> > >
> > >
> > > DR pointed out that NS-DOS was extremely similar to CP/M.
> > >
> >
> https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~johnsojr/2012-13/fall/cs370/resources/An%20Inside%20Look%20at%20MS-DOS.pdf
> > > IBM didn't consider it a problem, andsimply offered to ALSO sell
> > CP/M-86, particularly since they were already also marketing UCSD
> P-System.
> > >
> > > CP/M-86 was not available yet, so everybody buying a disk based PC
> > bought PC-DOS.
> > > But, most of us assumed thata CP/M-86 would become the standard once it
> > came out, and PC-DOS was similar and let us use the machines while
> waiting.
> > >
> > > CP/M-86 took a long time to come out (6 months is a LONG time in such
> > things).
> > > When it did, the price was $240.
> > > There are disagreemnets about whether DR or IBM had set the price
> point.
> > >
> > > Most decided to keep using Pc-DOs until CP/M-86 had caught on.
> > > But with the price differential, and the lead, PC-DOS remained the
> > standard.
> > >
> > >
> > > dr continued, came out with MP/M-86, and eventually came out with
> > "Concurrent DOS", and "DR-DOS", which was based on MS-DOS.
> > > Microsoft could not fault somebody for copying them, when it was the
> > ones that they had copied.
> > > No, Microsoft could certainly not claim trademark status for "DOS"!
> > > In fact, although Microsoft trademarkd "MS-DOS", IBM did NOT trademark
> > PC-DOS, saying that it just meant Personal Compter Disk Operating System,
> > which is a description, not a unique name. In 1987, I visited the Patent
> > and Trademark Office outside of Washington, DC, and personally confirmed
> > that in their stacks.
> > >
> > > Many people have said that blowing off IBM was the stupidest move in
> the
> > history of stupid moves.
> > > Other people insist that blowing off IBM was the BRAVEST move in
> history.
> > >
> > >
> > > A lot of people gave Gary flack about it.
> > > eventually, he bagan drinking.
> > >
> > > On July 8, 1994, Gary fell and hit his head. It is unclear whether that
> > was during an altercation. (A lot of people fall during bar brawls) It
> > was at the Franklin Street biker Bar & Grill, Investigation as a
> potential
> > homicide was inconclusive.
> > >
> > >
> > > About 10 years ago, I was in Pacific Grove, and visited the DR house on
> > Lighthouse street. An extremely hospitable fellow had recently bought it
> > in a foreclosure sale. At the time that he bought it, he was unaware of
> > the historical significance. He let me wander through the whole place,
> > looking out the upstairs window at the walkway, etc.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
> >
> >
>
