I'll make it simple. if a computer is being purchased by a non-human, i.e. corporation, to be used to benefit the corporation, it is NOT a personal computer. Corporations tend to buy things on purchase orders, including open ended, for hundreds or thousands at a time.
One way to determine if it is being used for business or not is if it is depreciated. In MOST cases, if it is being depreciated (or perhaps even expensed), then it is a BUSINESS computer. Simple Tax law. Aside from tax cheats, it is ILLEGAL to depreciate a computer UNLESS IT IS BEING USED FOR BUSINESS, and therefore NOT personally. I presume when Apple gave computers to schools, they were considered a donation, not depreciated or expensed. If a computer is being purchased by a human, for the use of a few humans and not for their primary livelihood, it is a personal computer. I won't quibble the exact transition point for someone who does the books for his home business as well as play games on the device. BECAUSE as long as 10% of purchases are for use as a PERSONAL COMPUTER, then I will call it a personal computer, even if 90% of the purchases, (and 99.9% of the computers, because each business purchase is for 500 computers). If you want to quibble the 10%, fine, I don't have the energy or desire to fight it out, but it is NOT reasonable to say that if JUST A SINGLE ONE of the computer type was being ised not-for-business, for two months, 6 years ago, then it is a personal computer. <pre>--Carey</pre> > On 05/28/2024 3:49 PM CDT Sellam Abraham via cctalk <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 11:34 AM CAREY SCHUG <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > On 05/28/2024 1:05 PM CDT Sellam Abraham <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > What if a corporation in 1970 purchased an IBM 360 for each of their > > employees for their individual personal use? Now what? > > > > Sellam > > > > Thanks for carrying the proposition to the list. I didn't realize I only > replied to you privately. > > > > 1. I don't believe ANYBODY could purchase a 360. You had to lease them. > > > > Why should that matter? Shouldn't it be how they were used rather than how > they were acquired? What if grandpa buys an Apple ][ for his grandson, > presumably for his personal use? But what if grandson is CEO of a > corporation and is going to use it for corporate purposes? What if an > organization purchases a large multi-user computer, keeps it in storage as > a backup (so it's never used), then years later when it's no longer fit for > organizational use sells it as surplus to a guy named Phil who brings it > home and installs it in his garage and uses it by himself for fun? What if > he then starts a business and then starts using it for the business, and he > hires other people and they start using it as well? Since it was purchased > by a corporation initially, does it make it not a personal computer, even > though it was previously only ever used personally by a person that > purchased it? > > > > 2. do you know of such a company? (with a significant number of employees, > > not a lone entrepreneur). I figure asking means that maybe you do. and > > since I believe no 360 but maybe the model 20 (not a real 360) or the > > model 22 would plug into household power it seems unlikely unless a tax > > dodge. > > > > So you concede it could have been done. Butt seriously, what if a large > corporation purchases a bunch of IBM PCs (disregard that they are called > "PC", i.e. "Personal Computer") for individual employees for their personal > use in their office at work? Are they not "personal computers" because the > corporation purchased them? > > > > > > 3. if it was one purchase order, it sounds like ONE for the personal > > computer tally, vs thousands for the not-personal tally. Remember we still > > need to have enough computers to be 10% (or negotiated percentage) of the > > total produced. One exception does not change everything. > > > > What if a thousand people got together to crowdfund the purchase of a > computer for poor little Timmy? What if that computer was a Cray 1? > > I think you need to put away the purchaser criterion. > > I should have repeated my other suggestion. Only computers NOT > > depreciated/expensed count as personal. If depreciated, it is a business > > computer for business purposes. > > > > Are you an accountant by any chance? > > > > to summarize any or all of the following: > > > > -- if depreciated or expensed (reducing income) it is business, otherwise > > personal. ** > > --10% of purchases (a lot counts as ONE purchase, including "100-200 per > > month for 3 years") must be out of household funds (per income tax filings) > > for and used for household education, not for earning claimed income. > > --by some criteria, be able to plug into private home power for a > > reasonable subset of the population. > > > > I love it, short and simple. I'll start printing this heuristic onto a > durable plastic card and we can start distributing them to all the VCF > attendees so they can properly determine whether a computer is personal or > not. We'll then have to establish a standards organization to ensure that > people are properly trained on how to read expense reports, go through > corporate books, compute depreciation (and power usage, which will require > electronics training), etc. > > > > ** There could be tax reasons/dodges (not saying they are legal): (1) a > > small business could expense them immediately (vs depreciate over years) by > > titling them in employees' or families' names, (2) a private individual > > could depreciate even though not actually doing any significant amount of > > income earning work on them (3) would have been expensed/depreciated but > > not enough income to be of any advantage, (4) probably many others, ask a > > shady tax lawyer. > > > > --Carey > > > > > How about can we be done with this now? :D > > Sellam
