Critiquing Islam -- in Context Ernie : Your thoughtful analysis of problems of Islam is appreciated. And your suggestions for dealing constructively with these problems, toward possible solutions, deserves comment, which I will get to shortly. The spirit in which you wrote is also for the good, and is something to work with, but.......... As usual ( actually just about always ) you do not deal with the crux of the problem for myself and many others, the explicit death threats that are made in the "holy book" of Muslims, the Qur'an, against people of faiths Muhammad disapproved of. Included are Goddess devotees of many kinds, including Hindus, neo=Pagans, religious traditonalists like Native Americans and Brazilian "African spiritualists," Mormons, and many New Agers.
Also, included are Atheists, Christian missionaries who seek to win soul for Christ, Muslims who convert and who do not return to Islam, and anyone who "blasphemes" Muhammad. While it is true enough that in most Muslim societies such punishment is seldom carried out, with lesser penalties being the norm, it also is a fact that in strict Islamic states these prohibitions are taken literally and the courts do, in fact, mete out death to the "guilty," which is the case in Iran ( with some inconsistency these days ), in Saudi Arabia, probably in Yemen, in Sudan ( again not with consistency, even if for real) , in northern Nigeria at least as often as not, and so forth. Which is to say that this is not a hypothetical that anyone can disregard as if the issue is moot. Moreover, observance of strict Islamic ( Shariah ) law has the potential to increase around the world at any time that another Taliban-like movement arises. In so many words, until and unless you deal directly with this basic issue there is little that you say that, true as it may be, has serious relevance . None of it matters if some Muslims seek to kill others with whom they disagree about religion. Granted that other faiths have histories that have included deaths of other religionists, Christianity not excluded, but in all cases except a few parts of the OT , and for limited objectives in some Hindu texts, "killing in the name of God" is outside the domain of faith, it is prohibited and regarded as a grievous sin. In Islam such criminality is regarded as a virtue. Islam, because of this fact, plus some other also heinous facts like approval of wife beating and draconian legal punishments ( cutting off hands for theft, etc ) which are intrinsic to the religion per se, simply cannot be regarded as belonging in the same community of faiths as any other religion of consequence. Islam simply does not share the same morality as Christianity, modern era Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, etc While these faiths do not agree about all aspects of morality, and serious criticisms can be made , still, they agree about most matters, and certainly about most of the basics. Islam does not. In other words, it is necessary for me to take exception to your comment that "Islam *is* deeply flawed -- BUT most of those flaws are ones it shares to a greater or lesser extent with other religions." This is empirically incorrect even if, yes, here and there you can find examples of commonalities. I will guess that this is what you want to believe, and is also what you may have seen in South Asia among various Muslims, but my focus is on Mid Eastern Islam, also African Islam, which, at least as many people see it, is central to any discussion of the religion, with South Asia a large scale exception that might best be explained by Muslim ignorance of the basics of their own religion. -------------------------------------------------------------------- As for the view : "the strawman position "All religions are basically good, except Islam which is basically evil" this really isn't a fair characterization for various reasons. First because the differences are structural and detailed and are spelled out. hence there is no actual straw man involved, Second because there are other "false religions" ( Satanism, Scientology, some others ) Third because the "family of faiths" model allows for critiques of different faiths on the assumption that all contain at least some flaws of consequence. Finally, while it can be said that Islam embodies much that is evil, in fact waaaaay too much, too much to tolerate by any rational human being, this is not to say that there is no good in it and certainly not to say that Muslims, especially if they are mostly ignorant of Islam, cannot be good. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "we can see that other religious systems have adapted and mellowed in response to modern, pluralistic society -- despite sometimes violent resistance! " True enough, but irrelevant since the Qur'an is regarded by all orthodox Muslims as not only "inspired" but as the living presence of Allah on Earth, a text that cannot be interpreted or revised in any way since it " is " God, not only God's words. What this means in practical terms is that all "reform movements " in Islam have resulted in formation of new religions --Druzes, Sikhs, Baha'is One can argue that there are exceptions in the case of Sufis and Ahmadiyyat, but few Sufis dispute the authority of any of the 4 schools of Shariah jurisprudence and at least more-or-less remain within the Muslim fold. As for Ahmadis, mostly a Pakistani phenomenon, they are regarded as heretical and despite their protestations that they are orthodox, no other Muslims accept that self designation . So they are a de facto new religion also. This is not to say that Muslims who are mostly ignorant of Islam and who live in a country like the USA or Canada cannot become mellow. Sure, this is possible and does happen. But you can almost say, "so what ? " Such developments have never had impact outside of local communities and it is doubtful in the extreme that they ever will. --------------------------------------------------------- As for Muhammad, a matter I have not made much of in the past, not really, there is a complete literature about his shortcomings, highlighting, among other things, his pedophilia ( marriage to a 6 year old girl consummated when she turned 9 ), his violation of solemn oaths, his overt anti-Semitism, his gross misogyny, his dishonesty, etc, and attributing to God a variety of historical errors of fact. And, O yeah, the murders he sanctioned, not just one or two, as inexcusable as that would be, but dozens or even hundreds Role model ? For what ? How to be a pervert ? How to be a criminal ? Well, even Al Capone may have had some good qualities, but we don't worship him. or regard him as a prophet. We regard him as a criminal of the first magnitude which is exactly how we ought to regard Muhammad. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- Granted that various non-Muslims make me sick starting with Ezra and Nehemiah, who I regard as utter sonsovbitches and anything but inspired prophets of Jehovah, and grated that the bigoted values of those two charlatans remains the source of much antipathy toward Jews to this day, contributing to anti-Semitism in the world, still, neither has the place in Judaism ( or Christianity ) as Muhammad does for Muslims. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- " a balanced critique should also mention the positive impact of Islam, the most notable of which is that it created a vibrant, coherent, long-lived civilization out of a motley collection of warring tribes. " Hate to say it, but this is regurgitated Muslim apologetics. Actually Islam imposed tribalism of approximately the most primitive form upon the great civilizations of its era, the Christian Byzantine Empire and the Zoroastrian Sassanid ( Persian ) Empire, and upon a variety of cultured independent states like Sheba ( Yemen ) and ultimately principalities of India and parts of China. And yes Islam unified tribal Arabia, but at what cost ? It wiped out the Jewish community of Arabia, and likewise the Christian community, not to mention the viable Goddess centered community of Mecca, probably the most "civilized" state on the peninsula. Your larger point is well taken, of course, there were real achievements among Muslims in history, especially in the arts and sciences. but we can keep those accomplishments without any need for Islam itself. For one, I am favorably disposed to anti-usury teachings of Islam, but, again, we don't need the Qur'an to uphold this view of economics and morality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Any "proposal of a frontal assault focused on "shaming" Muslims would seem doomed to failure. " Good point, except this is not my view. Rather my outlook derives from Baptist example, but which might just as well be Catholic or Buddhist. That is, be clinically truthful, make honesty about matters of faith absolutely essential . Not to "shame" people, but to wake them up and to take conscious responsibility for belief in falsehood and for valorizing immorality. The model is also medical, diagnose the illness or injury, look at the facts objectively, and take appropriate remedial actions, especially resolve to quit old ways as completely as possible and to start over with new values and a new worldview. What do you tell a mafia don ? Sure, the mafia has some good points and you should feel free to stay in the Gambino organization as long as you seek to reform it ? Hell no. We say, whatever good is in the mafia is vastly overweighed by the evil in it and your very best choice is to quit, immediately and completely. In a Baptist context there also is a massage of repentance and assurance of forgiveness of sins if someone actually repents and seeks to make all possible amends, and this approach is best of all. But not necessarily as a Christian convert even if you or I might recommend that as a superior choice. Give Muslims maximum choice. If they simply want to quit and at least for a while espouse no religion, OK, if Buddhism is their choice, OK, and so forth, but get out of the trap that is Islam. Your recommendation to import good and useful ideas from other religions into Islam ( unsaid, into other faiths as well ) is well taken, and a welcome approach, but, while I agree whole heartedly, what are the realistic chances of that ? About the same as Orthodox Jews doing likewise, or orthodox Parsis ( who maybe are worse about such things ). That's the rub. In so many words, it is about as difficult as an across the board attempt to convert a Muslim to another faith.. so, may as well seek the maximum. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - There are other issues we might also discuss, and various parts of your critique have been glossed here simply for reasons of available time, but this ought to put matters in perspective. Billy In a message dated 5/13/2009 2:30:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Hi all, This is an attempt to formulate a coherent response to Billy's comments about Islam, both on-list and off-list. As such, I apologize for not addressing all of Billy points, and probably dredging up topics none of you heard about, but hopefully this will give us a fresh start to a well-worm discussion. My underlying thesis statement is that Islam *is* deeply flawed -- BUT most of those flaws are ones it shares to a greater or lesser extent with other religions. As such, it is essential to understand the precise nature of each of those flaws in order to effectively address them. I contrast this with the strawman position "All religions are basically good, except Islam which is basically evil" -- which may or may not caricature of Billy's actual position, though it certainly has some similarity to many things he's said. To wit, here are my critiques of Islam. I freely admit these are superficial and off the top of my head, but the goal is to use this as a _starting point_ for deeper understanding. A. Shared Problems 1. Islam is rooted in violence There is no way around this. Mohammed was a military leader, not just a spiritual one. That reality is endemic to Islam, and shapes both their history and their present day approaches to problems. But, that isn't unique to Islam. In Judaism, Joshua and David were both military leaders as much as spiritual ones, and Abraham himself was known for his military prowess. In a similar vein, America (and modern day Israel) were also born out of violent revolution and conquest -- not always very pretty, and often genocidal. That isn't an excuse for Islam, but it is a reminder that we (Americans, Israelis, and their spiritual/cultural descendants) also have a violent heritage *we* need to deal with, which should give us empathy (though NOT sympathy) for the challenge Islam faces. 2. Islam is archaic Many of the most objectionable characteristics of Islam -- the treatment of women, fatalism, slavery -- were more or less the "norm" for human societies back in the 7th century. Islam certainly deserves blame for institutionalizing and perpetuating those sins rather than confronting and solving them, but they didn't invent those problems. We see the same problem (albeit on shorter timeframes) in most religions traditions -- consider casteism in Hinduism, or bigotry among southern Christians pre-1950's. 3. Islam is intolerant Islam is explicitly and violently intolerant of non-monotheistic faiths (like Billy's godess worshippers) and "heretics". Then again, so was Judaism, at least if you believe the Hebrew Old Testament. To a greater or lesser extent, this problem is true of all religions that make universal truth claims with practical societal consequences (e.g., all monotheisms). This is why Christianity has also had periods of deep intolerance and infighting. It is also worth nothing that our friends the Sikhs -- who mirror many radical centrist ideas -- also started out as violent, intolerant sect! 4. Islam is inherently political The bulk of Islamic law presumes that the entire society is made of Muslims, which naturally leads towards the pursuit of political dominance (in contrast to Christianity, and diaspora Judaism, which start from the assumption of minority status). Of course, Islam shares this characteristic with most forms of paganism and traditional religion (Egyptian, Greek, etc.) as well as (albeit to a lesser extent) with Hinduism. 5. Mohammed was a flawed founder The Quran itself has Mohammed acting outside Islamic law (thought it excuses him). This certainly taints Islam, and shapes much of their treatment of women. Then again, many of his behaviors were repeated by Mormonism's founder Joseph Smith, yet somehow Mormonism is arguably the most family-friendly religion around today. To summarize, from this perspective Islam is not so much uniquely evil, as that it shares the worst characteristics of many other religions. Billy may not think that much of a difference, but I think it is essential. All these problems are things other religions share and struggle with, so Islam's difference from them is *qualitative* not "quantitative." In addition, we can see that other religious systems have adapted and mellowed in response to modern, pluralistic society -- despite sometimes violent resistance! Thus, it isn't *too* much an exaggeration to say that the virulence of Islam's current problems are largely due to its "youth" and "cultural isolation", and to hope that positive interaction with the modern world might improve its character. Further, a balance critique should also mention the positive impact of Islam, the most notable of which is that it created a vibrant, coherent, long-lived civilization out of a motley collection of warring tribes. That civilization had its problems (as do they all), but it is still a rare achievement. Plus, it played a crucial role in transmitting Greek and Indian learning to our own "Western Christendom" civilization. In addition, Islam does deserve some credit for institutionalizing the practice of giving alms (even if only 1/40th instead of a tithe), and minimizing the ravages of alcohol (albeit with the drastic measure of enforced abstinence). All that said, I do think there are some problems unique to Islam that _do_ present unusual dangers. B. Islam is excessively, unevenly wealthy Middle Eastern Islam has the same problems much of Africa does: extreme, inequitably-distributed resource wealth. This leads to unstable societies, religious (or tribal) fanaticism, and corrupt governments. Worse, the international nature of Islam makes problems that would be endemically local in African societies into global pandemics of violence (cf. the Palestinian problem). C. Inability to Handle Humiliation Billy is more equipped to comment on this than I, but Islam doesn't seem to have any real concept of repentance and forgiveness. Jews have Yom Kippur, Christians have the death and resurrection of Jesus, Hindus have karma, and Buddhists have detachment. If a Muslim feels shamed and wronged, it isn't clear to me that they have any social/ religious mechanism for processing that grief other than violent revenge (or perhaps fatalism, which simply turns that shame inward rather than processing it). So in fact, I would accept a claim from Billy that this aspect of Islam is a) intrinsic, and b) deadly, and arguably c) incurable, and thus a justification for why Islam needs to be replaced. However, if that is the specific "defect" we are trying to remedy, then Billy's proposal of a frontal assault focused on "shaming" Muslims would seem doomed to failure. My counter-proposal would instead focus on: A. Importing "best practices" from other religions to (much as Hindu reformers did in India after encountering Christianity) B. Fostering political and economic reform, as is (slowly) happening in some African countries C. Finding a non-shaming way to encourage Muslims to reject that core tenet of Islam (e.g., Sufi spiritualism, Bengali contextualization of Christianity, revisionist readings of the Koran, whatever). In short, I believe it is far more effective (albeit labor intensive) to attack and "destroy" Islam 'in detail' on particular problematic aspects of their faith, rather than using "brute force" (rhetorical or otherwise) to destroy it as a whole. And that's all I have to say about that (for now :-). -- Ernie P. _______________________________________________ Centroids mailing list: [email protected] http://radicalcentrism.com/mailman/listinfo/centroids_radicalcentrism.com Archives at http://radicalcentrism.org/pipermail/centroids_radicalcentrism.com/
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