David : I did not mean to suggest that the gvt raid on the Koresh compound was justifiable . certainly not in the way it was carried out , with tanks and a lot of other stuff beyond the pale. But as I understand it, the serious invasion of the compound only came after a federal agent had been shot while trying to serve a warrant there.
Billy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- In a message dated 5/30/2009 7:43:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: You were doing fine until you mentioned David Koresh. The wikipedia article has a neutrality dispute, as would most articles on the Koresh/Waco Siege. Uh, the Koresh group "committed acts of violence" after a government invasion of their property. They had been living somewhat peacefully there in Waco (if strangely) for a few years. The jury verdict was "not guilty" on some survivors, but the judge intervened on the rest and gave them the maximum sentences for all convictions (and ultimately the Supreme Court smacked him down for his excessive sentences). Just can't have Big Brother questioned by a bunch of jurors under the Clintoon administration. Probably not this administration either. A much, much better claim would be that of child abuse and polygamy, the latter being something that Koresh actually bragged about (see Wikipedia article below). Much like the splinter LDS group, Koresh had some barely teenage "wives." But "violence" in the end was largely instigated by the government in the form of a "no-knock" raid and a tank assault. For a group that did not like the government (the Antichrist) already, surely no one expected an open arms meeting with group hugs. "The congressional investigations and the Davidian lawsuit were marked by more government abuse and cover-ups, including ATF and FBI agents lying and perjurying themselves, missing evidence, conflicting testimony, and the government refusing to allow the Davidian lawyers to question certain government agents. All of the Davidians were found not guilty of conspiracy charges. Four were found not guilty of all charges, and seven were found guilty of lesser chargers. However, in a final show of government power, the judge in the case leveled harsh punishments, giving five of the Davidians the maximum possible sentence of forty years in prison. His decision left the jury forewoman, Sarah Baine, in tears. Before the sentencing, she wrote the judge that even "five years is too severe a penalty." Her pleas fell on deaf ears." _http://wiki.freetalklive.com/Waco_ (http://wiki.freetalklive.com/Waco) "The Government dismissed the charges against one of the twelve Davidians, Kathryn Schroeder, pursuant to a plea bargain. After a jury trial lasting nearly two months, the jury acquitted four of the Davidians on all counts with which they were charged. Additionally, the jury acquitted all of the Davidians on the murder-related charges, but convicted five of them on the lesser-included offense of aiding and abetting the voluntary manslaughter of federal agents._[43]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege#cite_note-42) Eight Davidians were convicted on firearms charges." _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege) David _ “There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide.”--Ayn Rand [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) wrote: Ernie : This is true enough as far as it goes, but the fundamental premise, that each religion is morally equivalent, is false on the face of it. Yes, there are a small percentage of Christian fanatics, there were maybe a dozen of so abortion clinic related killings in the 80s and 90s. And maybe you can add Christian cult criminality, like the Koresh group in Waco that committed acts of violence, but added up what do you get ? Less than a hundred killings in 30 years, at least Re: the USA. Adding up all Christian nations maybe you'd get a thousand in 30 years., viz Lebanon Falangists., some Nigerian Christian revenge homicides . , etc, but the grand total would be fairly small. How many killings have been committed in the name of Islam in 30 years ? On the order of 100,000 ( even after subtracting "military-inspired" actions in Iraq ) The ratio is approximately 100 : 1 This is not accidental even if, yes, not all Muslims are violent or approve violence Granted, ideology cannot explain all of the discrepancy, but it would seem to be a reasonable conclusion that it explains at least half of the difference, and way well explain much more than that. Simply put, the Qur'an cannot be disregarded, Nor can the OT, by the way, a new conclusion of mine, thinking about the genocidal wars supposedly commanded by God in Joshua. To be sure, while there are some other episodes of similar violence scatted around in other OT books, Joshua seems to be the worst of it. But it still is there and how can anyone say that it has no effect on the less than ideal conduct of some % of Israelis toward Arabs ? Obviously it has some effect, and possibly more than anyone wants to admit. What could anyone expect without the basically anti-violence influence of the NT ? Core religious books do matter. This point will inevitably get lost if one is not well informed about the contents of these core documents or if, in the case of Etzioni, one wants to see equivalence for reasons of political expediency and moral embarrassment and is therefore open to self deception. Billy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ _Obama to Muslims: Unclench your fist _ (http://blog.amitaietzioni.org/2009/05/-obama-to-muslims-unclench-your-fist.html) from _Amitai Etzioni Notes_ (mip://02744ac8/reader/view/feed/http://blog.amitaietzioni.org/atom.xml) by Amitai Etzioni ...Obama can here build on the finding that there is no clash of civilizations but a clash within each civilization; namely, between the moderate people who reject violence and those who legitimate it. In Christianity, it is the division between those who see Christ as a prince of peace and those who see him as the sword. In Judaism, between rabbis who interpret “an eye for and eye†as a call for compensation and the Jews who interpret the text as a call for revenge. It is a division equally found in secular belief systems; for instance, within Socialism between Fabians and Stalinists. The same holds for Islam: There are Muslims who see Jihad as a spiritual journey of self development, or as solely defensive (“Fight those in the way of God who fight you but do not be aggressive: God does not like aggressors†[Koran 2:190]), and those who view it as a war on all infidels. There are those who those who recognize that “There is no compulsion in matter of faith†(Koran 2:256) ) and that when Muhammad exclaimed, “Oh Lord, these are certainly a people who do not believe,†Allah responded to him, “Turn away from them and say: ‘Peace’†(Koran 43:88-89) – and those who seek to “Slay the idolaters wheresoever you find them, and take them captive or besiege them†(Koran 9:5). One can find readily find passages in the Koran, in other Muslim texts, and in interpretations of texts and sermons that lean in both directions. However, data show that most Muslims embrace the nonviolent interpretations. Among the then 140 million Muslims in Indonesia, 69.5 million in Turkey, and 32.3 million in Morocco, fifteen per cent or fewer support suicide bombers, according to a 2005 Pew survey. Support for suicide bombers has dropped sharply in Pakistan, from 41% in March 2004 to 5% in spring 2009. It has also dropped dramatically in Jordan, from 57% in May 2005 to 25% in Spring 2009. When asked about attacks on civilians in the United States, the large majority of respondents in Egypt (84%), Indonesia (73%), Pakistan (55%), Jordan (68%), Turkey (74%) and the Palestinian territories (59%) stated that they disapprove, a 2008 poll found. Seventy percent or more of respondents to a 2008 Pew poll in Indonesia, Pakistan, Tanzania and Lebanon are concerned with the rise of Islamic extremism in the world, and majorities in Egypt, Nigeria, and Jordan feel the same way. Additionally, the majority of Egyptians (57%) see terrorism a “ very big problem†in their country, and the vast majority of people in Indonesia (72%) and Pakistan (90%) feel the same. Large majorities in these three countries also believe that violent attacks that are carried out to achieve political or religious goals are not justified. Other reports have indicated little support for terrorism among Muslims in India, Malaysia, and Bangladesh... = _______________________________________________ Centroids mailing list: [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) _http://radicalcentrism.com/mailman/listinfo/centroids_radicalcentrism.com_ (http://radicalcentrism.com/mailman/listinfo/centroids_radicalcentrism.com) Archives at _http://radicalcentrism.org/pipermail/centroids_radicalcentrism.com/_ (http://radicalcentrism.org/pipermail/centroids_radicalcentrism.com/) ____________________________________ _______________________________________________ Centroids mailing list: [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) _http://radicalcentrism.com/mailman/listinfo/centroids_radicalcentrism.com_ (http://radicalcentrism.com/mailman/listinfo/centroids_radicalcentrism.com) Archives at _http://radicalcentrism.org/pipermail/centroids_radicalcentrism.com/_ (http://radicalcentrism.org/pipermail/centroids_radicalcentrism.com/) _______________________________________________ Centroids mailing list: [email protected] http://radicalcentrism.com/mailman/listinfo/centroids_radicalcentrism.com Archives at http://radicalcentrism.org/pipermail/centroids_radicalcentrism.com/
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