If you have not stated yourself clearly (notice i even looked up the word
manufactured to make sure I didn't misinterpret what it meant) that doesn't
mean I "twisted your words", it means you were unable to communicate
effectively. Quite frankly, it appears to be a pattern for you to blame
others for your own issues.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benjamin Falloon [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 10:15 AM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
>
> Just a quick note Beth...
> My posts yesterday have arrived at radical different time from when they
> where from composed(anyone else having this problem?), so a lot of stuff
> would now be out of context.
>
> I want to square things with you Beth.
> You're entitled to have an opinion on my posts just as I on yours, but
> words
> do not necessarily have a 'fixed' meaning (absolutely literal) as you may
> have interpret them. I don't want to digress too much into the "you said
> this, I said that" etc etc form of conflict. Better to just leave the
> topic
> alone and move on.
>
> Would you agree?
>
> Benjamin
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fleischer, Beth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 5:03 AM
> Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
>
>
> > No Bejamin, you said something and now say that it isnt' what you said
> or
> > meant. I didn't twist anything -
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Benjamin Falloon [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 10:24 AM
> > > To: CF-Community
> > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
> > >
> > > You're good hate me for this :-)
> > > As Charles Bukowski said "[America is] not a free country --
> everything
> is
> > > bought and sold and owned."
> > >
> > > You'd rather over-simplify, misinterpret and generally twist my words
> to
> > > suit your own confortable assumes then engage the debate.
> > > There are people on this board that respond to my posts with
> intellegent
> > > debate. You're welcome to join it, but what is really the point of
> your
> > > last
> > > post? I mean really, what is your point?
> > >
> > > Benjamin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Fleischer, Beth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 4:12 AM
> > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
> > >
> > >
> > > > No, I said if you hated our country, there are other countries you
> are
> > > > welcome to live in. You can stay - we ARE a free country, you are
> > > welcome
> > > > to stay and hate it. I just wonder what alternatives you find
> > > preferable.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Gary P. McNeel, Jr. [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:37 PM
> > > > > To: CF-Community
> > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
> > > > >
> > > > > Whether Howard meant to do this intentionally or not, this is a
> common
> > > > > tool
> > > > > in American media (on both sides), maybe in others. "Boiling it
> down"
> > > can
> > > > > oversimplify complex issues and make them seem out of context.
> Watch
> > > Bill
> > > > > O'Reilly, he is a master at this. It is a common tool. We are
> > > increasingly
> > > > > being taught to NOT be skeptical of our leaders and their agendas
> or
> > > to
> > > be
> > > > > afraid to question their actions for fear of a personal attack.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been attacked in here for my same views. This type of
> attack
> > > was
> > > > > used
> > > > > by McCarthy and Reagan. "If you don't agree with us, you must not
> be
> > > with
> > > > > us
> > > > > and you must agree with the other side." It is happening in the
> news
> > > and
> > > > > in
> > > > > politics everyday in America. It happens in this group. Don't
> support
> > > the
> > > > > war? You must be anti-American (re: Beth saying I should leave
> America
> > > > > because I exercise the very rights I and others have served in the
> > > armed
> > > > > forces to protect). Think maybe the way America has exploited
> other
> > > > > countries and pissed some people off? You must be un-American.
> Think
> > > the
> > > > > Attorney General is a right-wing, neo-Nazi sympathizer (see his
> past
> > > > > writings and remarks)? Think these new tribunals and anti-terror
> > > > > legislation
> > > > > are knee-jerk? You must be anti-American. "Get with the program
> > > soldier"
> > > > > ("FMJ"). Who's side are you on? Etc. Etc. No real effort is made
> to
> > > > > understand the other side of the argument, just attack the arguer
> (ad
> > > > > hominem).
> > > > >
> > > > > What has the War In Afghanistan (America's Next War, ad
> infinitum)...
> > > done
> > > > > so far? We really don't know. Sure, there are some women without
> > > > > birquas(sp)
> > > > > on. And some men have shaved beards. But have we actually stopped
> > > > > terrorism
> > > > > at all? Have we helped unleash a civil war? Laid the ground for
> one?
> > > After
> > > > > the attacks in Israel, I would say no. In a year or two, when the
> > > > > political
> > > > > capital of Afghanistan has been spent and we realize what the war
> is
> > > > > costing, people will go back to watching "news" of OJ or endless
> talk
> > > > > about
> > > > > some other trivial subject (Condit comes to mind or sports). I
> think
> > > there
> > > > > are more sports channels than "news" channels. Feed the
> distractions.
> > > > > Opium
> > > > > for the masses. Cheap to make and people will pay a fortune for
> it.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW - I have heard zero on the news about the cost, and I am
> talking
> > > the
> > > > > nightly or daily news, not some obscure web source I have to track
> > > down,
> > > I
> > > > > am talking what most Americans will see.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, I am tired. Good night.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Gary
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 1:04 AM
> > > > > > To: CF-Community
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why do you feel the need to "boil down" my statements? I don't
> > > > > > doubt it was
> > > > > > an honest attempt on your part, but why is it nessasary? In your
> > > case
> > > it
> > > > > > seems your 'honest' attempt at boiling down my statements was
> > > intended
> > > > > for
> > > > > > your then to manipulate my statements to gain support from other
> > > > > > members on
> > > > > > this board and discredit my original intentions. In short, to
> put
> > > words
> > > > > in
> > > > > > my mouth. Nothing in my posts are indicated my
> agreeing/condoning
> > > the
> > > > > > taliban, yet you sarcasically impied this with your post along
> > > > > > with labeling
> > > > > > my words "liberal mantra".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I see a distinct difference between news and truth or 'reality'.
> > > > > > If you take
> > > > > > one of my previous metaphors, truth (the ingrediant) is sugar,
> but
> > > coke
> > > > > > (corporate news) is not sugar, it may be based on sugar, but
> there
> > > is
> > > > > > nothing natural or real about it. It's a consumable commodity.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is my objection put simply. I do condone the sterotyping of
> > > > > > Palastinians into "American hating terrorists" by people who use
> > > > > > the 'street
> > > > > > celebration' footage as an example. This is a gross
> generalisation
> > > > > > equivelent to called all americans "fat fast food addicted
> ignorant
> > > > > > war-loving facists". Neither of these two description are fair
> and
> > > > > > demonstrate radical ignorance. The corporate news is in part
> > > > > > responsible for
> > > > > > this ignorance. This is my objection.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Benjamin
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:52 PM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > It appears that you want to turn an honest attempt to boil
> down
> > > your
> > > > > > > statements to their most basic terms (and give you a chance
> to
> > > > > respond
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > correct any misunderstanding) as an attack. I wasn't attacking
> > > > > > you. I was
> > > > > > > attacking the idea that we shouldn't draw conclusion when
> > > > > > presented with,
> > > > > > > what even you described as factual, news accounts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I see you trying to play both sides of the fence -- the news
> is
> > > > > biased,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > it's factual.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You can't have it both ways.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As a journalist, I also take offense at your narrow-sighted,
> > > > > uninformed
> > > > > > view
> > > > > > > of how a news operation works. It's the old thing -- people
> who
> > > don't
> > > > > > like
> > > > > > > to hear the truth blame the messenger. And then deride any one
> who
> > > > > says,
> > > > > > > "Hey, maybe it's not the messenger's fault." It's a very
> > > convenient
> > > > > > position
> > > > > > > to be in -- you can cast aspersions all around without ever
> being
> > > in
> > > a
> > > > > > > position to honestly face your own biases.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > H.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:28 PM
> > > > > > > To: CF-Community
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You read into my words through your own stereotypical view of
> > > > > > non-mainstream
> > > > > > > thinking...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > My original post concerned the discussion surrounding the so
> > > called
> > > > > > > 'celebrating Palastinians'. My critisism was limited to a
> > > discussion
> > > > > > > concerning oppinions on this footage. Having said that, I
> don't
> > > > > welcome
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > putting words in my mouth concerning my position on the
> Taliban
> > > > > > and their
> > > > > > > oppressive regime.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You've attempted to discredit my criticism of corporate owned
> > > media
> > > by
> > > > > > > insinuating that I support the Taliban because I mistrust the
> > > news.
> > > > > Your
> > > > > > > conclusions are weak. You can label my words as "liberal
> mantra"
> > > if
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > wish, but in my oppinion this does your position no credit as
> it
>
> > > > > implies
> > > > > > > you're more interested in labels and stereotypes then a
> > > > > > discussion of any
> > > > > > > real depth.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Keep watching television Howard. It appears to do you a lot of
> > > good.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Benjamin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:17 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don't want to misstate what you're saying, but let me boil
> > > down
> > > > > for
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > what I hear you saying:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1) The news may be factually correct, though the nuance may
> be
> > > off
> > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > of entertainment values -- therefore, the "real" news is
> some
> > > how
> > > > > > > obscured.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2) Because the "news" has been remanufactured to a degree,
> > > > > > and no longer
> > > > > > > > reflects the raw, unvarnished truth, it is offensive to base
> any
> > > > > > > conclusions
> > > > > > > > this "newstainment."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Am I understanding you correctly?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Therefore, we should not condemn the Taliban for beating,
> > > stoning
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > murdering women because, by golly, we learned about it on a
> > > > > > network news
> > > > > > > > show. And it was edited. And who knows what was left out. A
> > > Taliban
> > > > > > denial
> > > > > > > > maybe? Or possibly a Taliban apology ("We didn't mean to
> stone
> > > those
> > > > > > women
> > > > > > > > to death -- the rock just slipped. Sorry.")
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is that really what you're saying. I mean, because that's
> what
> I
> > > > > hear
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > saying. And I find it pretty offensive.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If the facts are correct, it matters little how they are
> > > > > > delivered. And
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > amount of political correctness (in this case, the liberal
> > > > > > mantra of we
> > > > > > > > shouldn't criticize other "cultures") can possibly justify
> what
> > > the
> > > > > > > Taliban
> > > > > > > > has done to women and dissenters within Afghanistan.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > H.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:18 PM
> > > > > > > > To: CF-Community
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Beth,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm not certain how you arrived at such an exaggerated
> > > > > > understanding of
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > original post. But allow me at least the oppertunity to
> expand
> > > my
> > > > > > > perspetive
> > > > > > > > before you sarcastically attack my posts once more, even
> though
> > > the
> > > > > > > original
> > > > > > > > post was not even address to you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I may have refered to television (and this can be broadened
> to
> > > any
> > > > > > > > corporately own/operated news service) as manufactured, but
> I
> > > > > > did not in
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > way insinuate that the 'stories' were myth. News services
> > > (mostly)
> > > > > > deliver
> > > > > > > > their content in a highly constructed way. News is like coka
> > > > > > cola; coke
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > based on sugar, a 'real world' ingredient, just as the
> > > "oppression
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > afghanistan women" may too be 'real world', but the end
> > > > > > result delivered
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > the news services is nothing 'natural'... it is a
> manufacured
> > > > > > construct
> > > > > > > > intentionally mixed to produce the desired effect. This is
> how
> I
> > > > > view
> > > > > > > > corporate news services. Most of what is aired looks no
> > > > > > different from,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > indeed reflects the kind of news approach highlighted by the
> > > > > nineties
> > > > > > film
> > > > > > > > "Wag the Dog".
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Images are carefully selected, edited and cut with emotive
> music
> > > and
> > > > > > > > commentry designed to promote a certain perspective. Exactly
> > > whose
> > > > > > > > perspective/interests/politics represented are beyond the
> > > > > > reach of this
> > > > > > > > discussion, but the net effect of these kinds of
> presentations
> > > are
> > > > > not
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > all dissimilar to those effects achieved by the
> entertainment
> > > > > industry
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > whole.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > News is entertainment/entertainment is news. I find making
> > > > > judgements
> > > > > > upon
> > > > > > > > other peoples/cultures etc based on this kind of information
> > > > > > offensive.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I recall a previous post by Gary that brought up the lack on
> > > true
> > > > > > > > investigative reporting in the main stream news. My oppinion
> > > > > > on the news
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > an extension of this logic.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Benjamin
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Fleischer, Beth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:12 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Folks!!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > did you hear it! The oppression of afghanistan women is a
> > > > > > myth, made
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > the media.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Benjamin, I heard about the plight of afghani women
> several
> > > > > > years ago
> > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > an afghan woman came to speak at a university. Did she
> make
> > > it
> > > up
> > > > > > too?
> > > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > she in on the big media conspiracy? Were the stories she
> told
> > > of
> > > > > > women
> > > > > > > > > being killed for walking down the street with a man whom
> > > > > > they weren't
> > > > > > > > > married to made up too? Were the stories of female lawyers
> > > > > > and doctors
> > > > > > > > made
> > > > > > > > > up too? And she left afghanistan not because she was no
> > > longer
> > > > > > > allowed
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > practice law there, but just to spread these lies about
> the
> > > > > > wonderful
> > > > > > > > > taliban rule? All those underground schools to teach
> girls
> > > dont'
> > > > > > exist
> > > > > > > > > right - because under the taliban rule girls WERE allowed
> to
> > > go
> > > to
> > > > > > > school?
> > > > > > > > > And all this information I received prior to 9/11 - it was
> > > > > > made up for
> > > > > > > > WHAT
> > > > > > > > > REASON?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > so, all the people in afghanistan listening to music
> again,
> > > > > shaving
> > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > beards, taking off their masks, they weren't really
> > > > > > oppressed its just
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > media invention, right?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The western media is at best, extrodinatily limited in
> it's
> > > > > > > > representation
> > > > > > > > > > of 'real people' in the middle east (or media east as
> it's
> > > > > exists
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > us).
> > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, it's representation is more often designed
> to
> > > > > promote
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > kind
> > > > > > > > > > of discussion by manufacture of 'stories' (one of these
> > > being
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > celebrating Palistinians, another being the oppression
> of
> > > women
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > Aphganistan for example). These stories are the
> developed
> > > and
> > > > > made
> > > > > > > self
> > > > > > > > > > referencial, repeated over and over by all media outlets
> > > > > > until they
> > > > > > > > become
> > > > > > > > > > the measure of oppinion polls on presidencial
> popularity.
> > > There
> > > > > > > simplify
> > > > > > > > > > polarize and synthasize politics and culture for the
> fast
> > > food
> > > > > > culture
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > is America.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:18 AM
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 1. There were a LOT more than 1 woman and 5 kids.
> There
> > > were
> > > > > PA
> > > > > > > police
> > > > > > > > > > > taking camera's away from reporters to avoid the news
> from
> > > it.
> > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > letters of protest from the AP and Reuters over it. I
> > > > > > know people
> > > > > > > who
> > > > > > > > > > live
> > > > > > > > > > > in Israel and have first hand reports as do many
> others.
> > > > > > > > > > > 2. The rumor that it was old footage was debunked. It
> > > > > > started with
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > student in Argentina and spread. It was real footage.
> > > > > > > > > > > 3. I don't condemn any Palestinian for the actions of
> some
> > > > > truly
> > > > > > > sick
> > > > > > > > > > > people who take pride and happiness in the suffering
> of
> > > > > others.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >As or your second quesion...
> > > > > > > > > > > >First, that clip of a women dancing and five kids
> > > > > > > > > > > >clapping there hands, I wouldnt realy know how that
> is
> > > > > > > > > > > >considred 'my people', last time i checked, the
> > > > > > > > > > > >Palestinian population was not reprented by a women
> > > > > > > > > > > >and 5 kids, and yes, a car passing by blowings its
> > > > > > > > > > > >horn...Second, CNN, which first aired the clip, was
> > > > > > > > > > > >and still is accused of airing an old clip which was
> > > > > > > > > > > >taking during the Iraq war, except , sadly, no media
> > > > > > > > > > > >outlet would ever let the story run, nor deny or
> > > > > > > > > > > >confirm the reports....
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >Now i dont know if that is right or wrong, I do
> > > > > > > > > > > >believe that YES, its very possible that there does
> > > > > > > > > > > >exist a palestinian women who danced in the streets,
> > > > > > > > > > > >and its so re-assuring that a camera somehow found
> her
> > > > > > > > > > > >dancing and aired her image, two hours after the
> > > > > > > > > > > >incident.....I would think there would be more
> > > > > > > > > > > >pressing issues at that time,but i guess a
> Palestinian
> > > > > > > > > > > >women supposedly dancing in the streets of
> > > > > > > > > > > >Palestine,is more important than the those tens and
> > > > > > > > > > > >thousands of casualties and the chaos that was
> > > > > > > > > > > >happening here..
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >I guess the Palestinians where just about to get
> there
> > > > > > > > > > > >independence and your blessings, and this women came
> > > > > > > > > > > >and screwed everything up for us!!!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >BTW, the women was kinda a heavy set, so i wouldnt
> > > > > > > > > > > >realy call it "Jumping up for Joy", the poor old lady
> > > > > > > > > > > >could barely walk, but she was eating sweets, which
> > > > > > > > > > > >does probably translate to her as jumping up for
> > > > > > > > > > > >joy!!!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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