judging by the rest of my inbox, he is, ayup. Funny, this email didn't even show up over here, so I sent another :) So then you are REALLY going to think I am uptight.
But never fear, I am done with the topic. I am off to get me a smoothie then back to work. I think I'll get TWO ginko supplements in it, what the fuck, maybe that will get me accused of, of, believing the world is flat or something :) LOL. Here's to you, Larry. Dana On 12/4/05, Bill Wheatley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Could you two take a few deep breaths and stop acting like pissed off > 3 year olds. There is debate and there is letting it get a little too > out of control. You're both good people so just relax guys. I think > anyone that is reading their email right now is cringing and going > jesus christ they both need to get laid and loosen up. > > Except for someone like weegs hes probably setting at home with some > popcorn cheering the fighting on :). > > I just dont like seeing you guys going for the throat. :) > > > > On 12/4/05, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I get ginko balboa in my smoothie -- more or less for the hell of it -- > and > > all of a sudden I have killed granny? Get a fucking grip. > > > > bullshit? folklore? witchdoctor? beads and rattles? FYI I was dianosed > and > > treated at one of the better university hospitals ;) And am now all > better > > :) Go get a life, Larry. > > > > Dana > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Larry C. Lyons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Personal attacks don't get you anywhere. I had thought better of you. > > > But given past behavior I'm not at all surprised. > > > > > > I am only a conservative in one area, when it comes to bullshit > > > beliefs that I see in most new age and alternative medicine > > > approaches. I don't follow folklore because its been proven wrong so > > > many times when it comes to medicine and related fields. You may think > > > its nice and great to have something like a witchdoctor wave beads and > > > rattles over you while muttering nonsense disguised as a secret > > > language as a cure. I look at the human cost of it. I have had to deal > > > with the family survivors of people who were absolutely convinced of > > > the effectiveness of laetril or Orgone rays, etc. Ginko falls into the > > > same area. Its a POS approach that's is pure magical thinking - there > > > is little or no attachment to reality. What do you tell the family > > > that granny deteriorated faster than expected - buy hey I know its too > > > bad, but its OK she was on Ginko Balboa. The shaman said it was > > > supposed to work. Since it didn't it must be her fault. I've heard > > > similar crap excuses from the alt med people. On the whole there is a > > > substantial lack of ethics among them. More are concerned with > > > separating money from their clients than actually trying to help them. > > > > > > Do your great studies report on dropout rates - How do we really know > > > what the actual effect of the drug is when most of the subjects > > > dropped out for one reason or another? So there was an effect on the > > > remaining members of the treatment group - was it due to the ginko, or > > > some other characteristic common to the study survivors. You cannot > > > tell one way or another. Are you willing to bet someones life, or as > > > importantly someone whole essence on those results? If so that's more > > > cruel to the person and their family than almost anything I can think > > > of - the promise of a false cure. > > > > > > larry > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > You have apparently never disagreed with him. Or read any of the > threads > > > > where he is talking to Sam. It isn't really worth my time to argue > with > > > him, > > > > but he reminds me of the worst of Canadian bureaucracy... unthinking > > > > conventional wisdom, and if you disagree you're a Luddite. That's > > > annoying. > > > > What really pisses me off though is that when you go look at his > links > > > half > > > > the time they don't say what he says they do. > > > > > > > > anyway. A Cisco online test awaits. Take a puff for me, eh? I'd > enjoy > > > one > > > > about now. > > > > > > > > Dana > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Rastafari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > wow. > > > > > > > > > > one thing, larry is far from pompous... he is a gentle soul > > > > > from what i could tell. we are all VERY over smart people > > > > > thats why we do what we do and how we do it... > > > > > > > > > > some of us just do not know to iterate everything we have to > > > > > say, in the best method. like a pizza delivery going to the > > > > > wrong house. Great pizza, bad delivery. > > > > > > > > > > tw > > > > > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > I don't *think* I am demented :) But a) no it is not the issue > and > > > b) I > > > > > can > > > > > > see that the thread would be confusing. So here is a brief > synopis. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Jill asks what people are having for supper > > > > > > 2. My answer - various health drinks; ginko balboa is mentioned > > > > > > 3. Sam says I heard that didn't work > > > > > > 4. In the throes of much caffeine I get sarcastic and say work > for > > > WHAT > > > > > is > > > > > > the question. > > > > > > 5. Sam mentions memory, a previous lengthy thread here > > > > > > 6. I tell him that's not why I had them add it to my smoothie > and > > > > > mention > > > > > > the anticoagulant properties > > > > > > 7. relatively amiable discussion, I summarize by saying right, > some > > > > > people > > > > > > think it helps with dementia, there isn't much in the way of > studies > > > on > > > > > > memory outside of that, but this si irrelevant, yada yada yada. > I > > > posted > > > > > all > > > > > > these studies in a discussion with Jim Davis months ago. > > > > > > 8. Larry having apparentlly read none of the above jumps in to > say > > > that > > > > > > science has proven that ginko balboa has no effect at all and > once > > > again > > > > > > posts a link that does not seem to support what he is saying. > > > > > > 9. I post link to study showing that ginko balboa potentiates > > > coumadin, > > > > > > wondering wtf, does Larry really think I would not have > researched > > > an > > > > > > illness I had -- maybe I should tell him there's no evidence his > > > insulin > > > > > > pump works and he is a poor deluded soul clinging to hope when > all > > > is > > > > > > hopeless :) > > > > > > > > > > > > 10. In a nutshell - It's a stupid argument. Larry is a pompous > > > asshole > > > > > who > > > > > > should not give a shit WHAT supplement I have them add to my > > > smoothie. > > > > > But > > > > > > he has it in his head that he is Mr Science and so obviously > right > > > that > > > > > any > > > > > > study out there must naturally support his suprficial > suppositions. > > > > > > > > > > > > back to work > > > > > > Dana > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Tony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i get that... but dementia... was that the issue? > > > > > > > or some blood/circulation disorder. im demented too, its > > > > > > > ok if you are :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > coumadin is an anti-coagulant. So is ginko balboa. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Tony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i guess i have no idea what this is all about. > > > > > > > > > and what is coumadin for? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > ok I went and looked anyway. It does say that there is a > > > benefit > > > > > if > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > doses are pooled. Not quite sure what that means, but it > > > does > > > > > tend > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > indicate that the issue is a little more complex than > you > > > > > portray it > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > be. > > > > > > > > > > Again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tsk as usually you are poo pooing without reading. > You'd > > > be > > > > > funny > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > weren't so condescending. The attitude of real science > > > indeed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, I am talking about anticoagulation, as Sam has > > > already > > > > > > > > > realized. > > > > > > > > > > > Remember that the next time you call him a > Neanderthal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for your study, don't have time. It may say this > but > > > given > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > track > > > > > > > > > > > record I am willing to bet it says more than that too. > In > > > any > > > > > > > event > > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > > > are other studies, peer-reviewed, my friend. See the > > > archives; > > > > > > > posted > > > > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > > > > this summer. Ther aren't a lot -- there are problems > with > > > > > > > establishing > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > standard does as I have already mentioned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Larry C. Lyons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that this Cocheran based meta analysis > > > summarizes > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > attitude > > > > > > > > > > > > of real science, there is no real effect for ginko > > > beyond a > > > > > > > placebo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.antiwrap.com/?789 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ginkgo biloba Compared with Cholinesterase > Inhibitors in > > > the > > > > > > > > > Treatment > > > > > > > > > > > > of Dementia: A Review Based on Meta-Analyses by the > > > Cochrane > > > > > > > > > > > > Collaboration > > > > > > > > > > > > A. Kurza, B. Van Baelenb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > aDepartment of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, > Technical > > > > > > > University > > > > > > > > > > > > Munich, Munich, Germany; > > > > > > > > > > > > bMedisearch International, Mechelen, Belgium > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dementia and Geriatric Cognitive Disorders > > > 2004;18:217-226 > > > > > (DOI: > > > > > > > > > > > > 10.1159/000079388) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Abstract > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Data were derived from the Cochrane Collaboration > > > > > meta-analyses > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > efficacies of ginkgo, donepezil, rivastigmine and > > > > > galantamine on > > > > > > > > > > > > changes in cognitive function in patients with > dementia > > > and, > > > > > > > where > > > > > > > > > > > > necessary, were transformed to standardized mean > > > > > differences. > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > > > > proportion of patients discontinuing trials was used > as > > > a > > > > > proxy > > > > > > > > > > > > measure of tolerability. Outcomes were assessed > after 6 > > > > > months > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > treatment. Trial data for cholinesterase inhibitors > were > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > > > > consistent than those for ginkgo, particularly > regarding > > > > > patient > > > > > > > > > > > > populations and outcome measures. Significant > benefits > > > on > > > > > > > cognition > > > > > > > > > > > > vs. placebo were seen with donepezil, 5 and 10 mg, > > > > > rivastigmine, > > > > > > > > > 6-12 > > > > > > > > > > > > mg, and galantamine, 16 and 24 mg. Significant > benefit > > > vs. > > > > > > > placebo > > > > > > > > > > > > with ginkgo was seen only when all doses were > pooled. > > > > > Similar > > > > > > > > > > > > proportions of patients discontinued treatment with > > > ginkgo > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > placebo. Cholinesterase inhibitors were also well > > > tolerated, > > > > > > > > > although > > > > > > > > > > > > a significantly greater proportion of patients > receiving > > > > > active > > > > > > > > > > > > treatment discontinued vs. placebo with some doses. > An > > > > > > > > > evidence-based > > > > > > > > > > > > medicine approach, taking into account the quality > of > > > > > clinical > > > > > > > > > trials, > > > > > > > > > > > > is essential when assessing the safety and efficacy > of > > > > > > > medications. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:185724 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:5 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.5 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
