Hi Mark! I would even disagree with the generality that "most men are dominant", but thats ok, we can agree to disagree on that.
--Beth, Pseudo usenet cop Merlin MTB, BikeE AT, RANS gliss, Trek R200, Kickbike Owned by Kavik (Samoyed Boy) and Toklat (Keeshond Boy) Anchorage, Alaska ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Stewart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 8:07 AM Subject: RE: Dodgeball and Sexism > I was afraid I would get a response like this and I apologize I even > said it. Trust me, I was not trying to be sexist. I apologize if it came > off that way. I was just trying to take another angle at it. Maybe I > should have worded the "dominant" statement more clearly, but I didn't > think I would have to. Knowing this list, everybody reads between the > lines and interprets the words how they think they should be > interpreted. I didn't mean to imply that *all* men are dominant - it was > just a generality. I think that we can agree that *a lot* of men are > dominant in nature. I DON'T imply that *all* women are not dominent and > I don't imply that men are dominant over women. If I were to imply that > women are subserviant to men, that would absolutely be a sexist > statement, but that's not what I said and hopefully didn't imply. I in > NO way think that. > > What I meant to imply was, on *average* and as a *general* rule, I would > think that men engage in and enjoy rough games more than women do. With > this *general* rule in mind, one could assume that some (not all) women > might have very different thoughts about rough games and their > usefullness. Of course, these are just general assumptions because, > obviously, every human being is different. Take yourself for example, > you played rugby. BTW - I think that's great! But you have to admit that > you probably don't see to many women playing rugby. > > I don't know, maybe I'm just digging myself deeper into this hole. > Sometimes my thoughts don't come out clearly into words. Again, I > apologize if I came off sexist because I'm not sexist at all. > > I'll shut-up for now... > > Mark > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BethF [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 11:52 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Dodgeball and Sexism > > > I played rugby for several years before my knees went out, so you are > being > sexist. I have no kids and no man is dominant over me. In fact, saying > that men are more dominant is one of the most sexist statements I have > ever > heard in my entire life. Men aren't more dominant they just enjoy > hurting > each other more than women do, generally. I wouldn't necesarily say > this is > a quality I admire in them. > > I have a brother who is mild mannered, terrible at sports and got the > crap > kicked out of him in bombardment. He didn't have the skills nor the > inclination to kick back. In the school we went to it wasn't respected > that > my brother had incredible grades, was probably the brightest kid in > school > (he got one question incorrect on his SAT's - he is very bright) - the > only > thing that mattered was that he was lousy at sports. > > I actually enjoyed both dodgeball and bombardment, but I think its an > inappropriate game for gym class, really - the object is to hurt other > kids. > We should teach our kids that hurting other kids is wrong. > > Now, I know this is going to spiral into another argument about how you > schmucks think we should teach our children to do whatever it takes to > get > on top, including hurting and stepping on others, because what really > matters is winning - but I think to teach our kids this does them and > the > rest of the world a grave disservice. > > > --Beth, Pseudo usenet cop > Merlin MTB, BikeE AT, RANS gliss, Trek R200, Kickbike > Owned by Kavik (Samoyed Boy) and Toklat (Keeshond Boy) > Anchorage, Alaska > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Stewart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 1:12 PM > Subject: RE: Church and State > > > > Well, that's the whole premise of football. Knock the living sh** out > of > > the person carrying the ball until he doesn't want to get back up. The > > problem is that people, like a previous post said, want to make > > everybody equal - It will never happen. Kids need to be challenged and > > learn to take defeat and learn to win. > > > > DISCLAIMER - I'M NOT BEING SEXIST: It is interesting though that a lot > > of women might have a problem with this because women are naturally > > motherly, nurturing and always watching after their young. Whereas men > > tend to be more dominant and would enjoy a rough game like dodge ball > > where you can peg someone in the head with a ball. I think it's just > the > > natural order of things. Do you have any brothers Beth? > > > > Mark > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BethF [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 3:18 PM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: Re: Church and State > > > > > > Challenged sure! But a game whose premise is to hit other folks as > hard > > as > > possible with a ball isn't what I would call challenging, its what i > > would > > call unsportsmanlike. > > > > --Beth, Pseudo usenet cop > > Merlin MTB, BikeE AT, RANS gliss, Trek R200, Kickbike > > Owned by Kavik (Samoyed Boy) and Toklat (Keeshond Boy) > > Anchorage, Alaska > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 8:27 AM > > Subject: Re: Church and State > > > > > > > Dodge ball is not used to make geeky kids feel geekier and athletic > > kids > > > feel superior. It's a game that gives kids exercise and helps them > > with > > > eye hand coordination not to mention have a little fun. It also > > teaches > > > kids how to work as a team in order to achieve a common goal. It > > > teaches kids how to deal with failure and also how to win humbly. > > These > > > are important life lessons for kids to learn. You would actually be > > > doing those kids that you consider geeky a disservice. Extending > your > > > logic, maybe the schools should lower their standards so that dumb > > kids > > > aren't made to feel dumber and smart kids superior and higher > > standards > > > of education should not be encouraged by teachers. Music programs > > > should be cut because some kids aren't musically inclined and in > order > > > to save them from shame, we should not encourage such things. Cut > art > > > classes because some kids can't even draw a stick figure. Kids need > > to > > > be challenged. Absurd. > > > > > > Michael Corrigan > > > Programmer > > > Endora Digital Solutions > > > 1900 S. Highland Avenue, Suite 200 > > > Lombard, IL 60148 > > > 630/627-5200 x-136 > > > 630/627-5255 Fax > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: BethF > > > To: CF-Community > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 11:14 AM > > > Subject: Re: Church and State > > > > > > > > > I agree with most of what you have said below - if someone isn't > > > comfortable > > > with another persons religious acts, its just too bad. > > > > > > However, I disagree about dodge ball - any game which is used to > > make > > > geeky > > > kids feel geekier and athletic kids feel superior shouldn't be > > > encouraged by > > > teachers, IMO. > > > > > > --Beth, Pseudo usenet cop > > > Merlin MTB, BikeE AT, RANS gliss, Trek R200, Kickbike > > > Owned by Kavik (Samoyed Boy) and Toklat (Keeshond Boy) > > > Anchorage, Alaska > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:46 PM > > > Subject: RE: Church and State > > > > > > > > > > Interesting you should touch on the "comfortable issue." I was > > just > > > > thinking about this earlier today and how this is one variable > we > > > haven't > > > > touched on this discussion. > > > > > > > > The great liberal commandment: "Thou shalt not make another > person > > > > uncomfortable." That's B.S. > > > > > > > > There is no guarantee, not in the constitution, not in nature, > not > > > in the > > > > normal course of human interaction that you will always feel > > > comfortable. > > > > Education, by its very nature, is discomforting. > > > > > > > > One of the most ridiculous things I've read about recently is > > > schools > > > > banning that age-old school yard game, dodge ball. They ban it > > > because, > > > > gosh darn it, some kids just aren't good at it. Well, I wasn't > > the > > > best > > > > athlete in elementary school and was often picked last for > teams. > > > And > > > while > > > > I couldn't dodge the ball very well, I sure could throw it > > (learning > > > to > > > > throw was a skill my dad taught me early, thankfully). It was > > always > > > a > > > great > > > > feeling of accomplishment when I threw the ball and hit one of > the > > > kids > > > who > > > > were among those who teased me. It was a legal and > > unchallengeable > > > chance > > > > for revenge. Furthermore, many of the greatest Americans, > > > politicians and > > > > business leaders, were kids who were not the toughest in school, > > or > > > the > > > most > > > > skilled. They were nerds, often. Yet, being teased, being made > > > > uncomfortable, made them stronger, and they often by passed the > > > "cool" > > > kids > > > > by the time they became adults. > > > > > > > > In uncomfort, sometimes life's greatest lessons are learned. > > Instead > > > of > > > > teaching kids that nobody has a right to make them feel > > > uncomfortable, we > > > > need to teach them that they need to grow a thicker skin. > > > > > > > > Because religion makes someone uncomfortable is a very poor > reason > > > to keep > > > > religion out of schools. Religion is one of the most fundamental > > > aspects > > > of > > > > life. It informs our entire history. Much of our classic > > literature > > > is > > > > nearly unintelligible without an understanding of Western > > religious > > > > traditions. Instead of teaching children that religion is > > something > > > evil > > > > and should be left unsaid, pushed into a corner and dismissed as > > > irrelevant, > > > > maybe we should teach them about tolerance and acceptance of > > > religious > > > > belief. That's probably the best reason, because all of the > legal > > > and > > > > constitutional ones, for making sure some accommodations are > made > > > for > > > > religion on our school grounds. > > > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Nick McClure [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:59 PM > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > Subject: RE: Church and State > > > > > > > > > > > > >That is why there are churches too. > > > > > > > > But the students don't go to the same church, they do go to the > > same > > > school. > > > > > > > > > > A teacher can use their room for a group, like the drama > club > > > and that > > > > > > doesn't bother you, but if it is a religious club, you just > > > > > > happen to want > > > > > > to study in that room. > > > > > > > > > >What? This is a flawed argument. Religion is highly volatile. > You > > > totally > > > > >missed my point in the email. > > > > > > > > I don't think I missed your point. You think that groups should > be > > > allowed > > > > to use the school so long as they are not limited to people of a > > > certain > > > > religion. But then you said "But my point is that I may want to > go > > > there > > > to > > > > study or whatever." > > > > > > > > So you are saying that groups who only allow people of a certain > > > religion > > > > to join don't keep you from studying. But others don't? Also the > > > school > > > > provides facilities made specifically for students to study, it > is > > > mandated > > > > to be quite, and there are ample research tools to use. > > > > > > > > >No big deal. Not a Christian argument anyway, it is a religious > > > one. > > > > >Religion should be kept out of public areas payed for by all of > > our > > > tax > > > > >dollars from people from all denominations (and no > > denominations). > > > I do > > > not > > > > >want anyone, anywhere, to be made to feel uncomfortable by > people > > > > practicing > > > > >there faith in a public area, for whatever reason and whatever > > > faith. It > > > > >seems simple enough to just use a church for this. > > > > > > > > Groups use school facilities all the time. The private catholic > > > school > > > > plays basketball against the public school in school facilities. > > Is > > > there > > > > anything wrong with this? > > > > > > > > So what you are saying, Religious groups can't use park > > facilities, > > > > schools, community centers, or the like if they show up as a > > group? > > > The > > > > people pay taxes just like the rest of us, why keep them from > > using > > > their > > > > facilities? So for churches that don't have any open lawn want > to > > > hold a > > > > picnic at the local park and they call to reserve a shelter, > they > > > should > > > be > > > > denied? That seems like they are being denied the right to > > assemble. > > > > > > > > I am sick of the idea that people should go out of there way to > > make > > > you > > > > comfortable. So what. If you aren't comfortable seeing a Moslem > > stop > > > and > > > > pray when the time comes, even if he just happens to be walking > > down > > > the > > > > street, then that is your problem, not mine or anybody else's. > You > > > seeing > > > > that makes you that uncomfortable, then get a grip, we are a > > divers > > > > society, we should be glad people do that and are not ridiculed. > > To > > > hide > > > > things like this takes away from one of the great abilities of > > this > > > country. > > > > > > > > We are different, many cultures, many people, living their lives > > in > > > peace, > > > > nobody feeling out of place. If we could open our eyes, and see > > that > > > just > > > > because this person pray at dusk, this person prays at dawn, and > > > this > > > > person doesn't pray, that we are still people, and we can be > > > friends, and > > > > we can respect each other. Differences of faith or opinion > should > > > not keep > > > > people from being comfortable. > > > > > > > > If you are uncomfortable seeing people go about their lives, > then > > > stay at > > > > home and close the blinds. While you have the right to go about > > your > > > lives, > > > > the rest of us have the right to go about ours. We should not > out > > of > > > our > > > > way to hide our differences, we should go out of our way to > > > celebrate > > > them. > > > > > > > > I don't care about Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, If you have > > read > > > what I > > > > said in many other posts, I am not a Christian, I am an > agnostic. > > If > > > you > > > > would look beyond your general dislike for people with faith, > you > > > would > > > see > > > > that they are people too. If one person would allow one group > > > access, but > > > > not another, then that is wrong, as matter of fact it is > illegal. > > > > > > > > If you read the first Amendment to the Constitution it states: > > > > "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of > > religion, > > > or > > > > prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom > of > > > speech, > > > > or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to > assemble, > > > and to > > > > petition the Government for a redress of grievances." > > > > > > > > This to me says that any law passed that has any thing to do > with > > > religion > > > > is unconstitutional. It also states that people have the right > to > > > assemble > > > > so long as they don't cause any trouble. > > > > > > > > You can't deny a group use of public facilities because it might > > > cause a > > > > problem. This would be like arresting somebody for just saying > > hello > > > to a > > > > prostitute. You can't do it. There must first be a crime, then > > deal > > > with > > > > it. If you feel a problem might occur, make the group pay for > > > additional > > > > security. That is what the KKK does when they get on the court > > house > > > steps > > > > in cities around the country. They preach hate, they want to > cause > > > violence > > > > and hatred, and they scream it from the most public place of > all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
