completely?
no -.

 But dogs aren't bred to KILL people.  Dogs are bred to work with people.
Even guard dogs.

Let me relate a story about my extremely friendly, happy samoyed Kavik.
Kavik loves EVERYONE - anyone who says hello to him is greeted happily and I
often lament that he loves strangers as much as I do.  There was one time
where we were walking on a narrow trail through the woods near our house.  I
noticed there was a man in the bushes - I could barely make out his baseball
hat - right next to the trail.  I became slightly concerned as to what he
was doing there.  Kavik immediately picked up on my worry - he noticed the
guy before I did (he was the reason I noticed the guy actually) and his ears
went forward, the tail went down and the hackles went up.  I had NEVER seen
my dog posture like this before - I have joked that he would kiss a would be
attacker.  He gave a low growl and I took my cue from him and said "Its OK,
Killer.  I see the man, its OK.  No attack".    I wondered if Kavik knew the
man had bad intentions, or what, because if friends prentended to attack me
Kavik always joined in the fray, attacking me too - there was no protective
instinct.

Later I realized that he keyed on my fear, and that guy was probably picking
berries (there are berries right there).  But I was relieved to know that my
dog WOULD protect me if needed. It may not be a killer instinct but it is a
protective one.  I do believe that if Kavik would protect me then just about
any dog would protect their pack, if threatened.

That being said the problem with these large, fighting breeds isnt' that
they can't be trained to be reliable   - and even if the dog isn't
completely reliable its a matter of the owner having CONTROL over the dog.
A 120 pound woman CAN control a 200 pound dog with the proper EQUIPMENT and
TRAINING - the 120 pound woman has to be the pack leader, period.    The
problem with these dogs is the incredible amount of damage these dogs do
when they do bite.  A cocker spaniel might bite 10 people in its life and
none of those bites might be serious enough to be reported to authorities.
One bite from a Presa is a serious injury - and because a Presa is bred to
guard extra care must be taken in training to socialize a presa well - so
that they aren't suspicious and aggressive towards strangers.  Because a
"killer instinct" in a  Presa is really that....

--Beth, Pseudo usenet cop
Merlin MTB, BikeE AT, RANS gliss, Trek R200, Kickbike
Owned by Kavik (Samoyed Boy) and Toklat (Keeshond Boy)
Anchorage, Alaska



----- Original Message -----
From: "Lon Lentz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 9:59 AM
Subject: RE: Dog Mauling Trial


> Do you believe it's entirely possible to train a dog's
> "killing instinct" completely out?
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BethF [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 1:38 PM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: Re: Dog Mauling Trial
> >
> >
> > Training applies completely to the owners.
> > The owners are entirely responsible for this event.
> >
> 
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