> -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 9:18 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" > > > EXACTLY: once experiment, experience and consensus (a long, arduous, > > contentious process) reach a conclusion it takes extraordinary > evidence to > > alter it. That's a core principle of the scientific method. > Yes, that is a core but there are certain topics that become taboo. Try > to > forget about ID for a moment and look at other scientific theories for > examples.
Like what tho'? Again: I see a LOT of resistance to theories which challenge highly established understanding and provide little evidence. But "taboo"? I can't think of anything. > >> The community is against Cold Fusion (the physics idea), so no > >> experiments > > > > Cold Fusion is a classic example of how there has NEVER been an > replicable > > claims yet there are dozens of new crackpot claims every year. This > is > > the > > hypothesis that's cried wolf. > Actually, thats untrue. There have been replications but not 100%, Exactly - the results just aren't worth massive resource dedication. Of course there still IS research going on in that field: lots of it in fact. Otherwise where would all the shoddy, non-replicable results come from? ;^) You note yourself that the Navy is funding research. > which > says there are other variables in the mix. Wasn't there a post here a > year > back or so about the Navy putting a nice sized chunk of money back into > Cold > Fusion research? The Navy, but not the scientific community as a whole. There is no "scientific community as a whole" that could put money, time or effort into anything. The Navy is funding part of the "scientific community as a whole" - so part of the community is, in fact studying the issue. > Even > if they do find the missing variable(s), getting journals to publish > the > findings or getting other scientists to try and replicate will be an > up-mountain battle at jovian gravity. Exactly. As it should be. Science has no responsibility to look at everything. Science follows the evidence and the evidence for Cold Fusion is weak and error-ridden. Good results, good evidence, good research WILL reverse that trend you're talking about but it WILL be an uphill battle. The more bad evidence that's generated, the more bad research done the harder it will become: science marginalizes fruitless areas and that's as it should be. > > This is just not true. The finer points of evolution are under > constant > > debate. When did life become sufficiently complex to allow > biological > > evolution? Is evolutionary change steady or punctuated? Is the > largest > > contributor mutation, environmental pressure or some other process? > > > > The theory is under constant refinement, it's the core understanding > that > > is > > nearly unassailable. NOT because of some "conspiracy" but simply > because > > the evidence is utterly overwhelming and convincing. > Thank you for the point. The core is nearly unassailable. No research > is > even thought of to re-examine the sacred core. If an experiment is > properly > formulated and replicatable but challenges that core, should it not be > examined? Sure research is thought of... of course up until know it's all been crap. To answer your question: yes, the experiment should be examined (and they are examined as all of the scientific responses to ID prove) but that experiment will NOT touch the core. The core of evolution is built upon over a century of good experiments, tremendously compelling evidence and NOTHING has come even close to assailing that core. Over turning a scientific theory isn't a game of words (as the IDers would like to think) or a game of a single "Eureka!" moment (as many people seem to think). If it happens at all it's a game of struggling inches: you're damn right it's work. Hard work. You have to fight tooth-and-nail for every convert to your cause and every person that laughs in your face needs to be met with more and better evidence. THAT'S the way it works. Science doesn't help here - it doesn't have to. Science needs to be shown and convinced. > And ANY PROPER experiment should be allowed to challenge a deeply > established norm. The onus now goes on the ID side to produce a proper > experiment. I would think that people would be happy for this. If the > ID > people are pushing for their position to be taken seriously by > scientists > they have lost any control of the playing field. Fat chance. ID is a thin veneer over religion. They're "scientific" premises are often centuries old and have been refuted time and time and time again. They only insist on a "fair" playing field when discussing education but are clearly unwilling and unable to do any of the real work that their stated position requires. Sure they'll debate (poorly - but loudly!) and pose, but they produce no research, provide no evidence. Argument is double edged at this point. Science has refuted every major testable claim by ID proponents - there's been nothing new from that camp for 40 years. Science has satisfied itself that there's nothing there. However every time that some scientist actually schleps out to continue this futile debate something strange happens: win or lose the Discovery Institute puts out a big press release the next day about how distinguished scientists consider ID worth debating over! Of course almost by definition they CAN'T provide an actual scientific view because they only accept evidence that meshes with their worldview. They start with their result and attempt like crazy to work backward. That kind of thinking isn't worth debating - more importantly it's not even possible to debate that kind of thinking. Jim Davis ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/message.cfm/messageid:242015 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.5
