Well again I have to go back to the fact that these soldiers did not have to go to the extremes that they did. I don't see how putting naked prisoners in a pyramid stack or putting a hood over their head and tying electrical leads to them is the right way to keep them awake. If they were told to do these things, they had every right to question these methods and report their commanders to higher authorities. Sure they risk being labeled a whistle-blower, and they might suffer some negative things from their unit when they get home, but I would rather live like that than in jail. They can always get out or transfer. They did not, and in fact by looking at some of the pictures they seemed to be enjoying themselves. Now of course it is easy for me to say this since I was not caught up in this mess. And yes I agree, the leadership should have been punished as well, and it is too bad that they did not. This is not the first time I have seen senior leadership screw up and move up. This is another unfortunate aspect of military life.
As far as checkpoints, what you are talking about is not the norm and does not happen on a daily basis. The news will portray it as so, but believe me it is really not that way. With that being said, there are some renegade soldiers out there who feel that shoot first and ask questions later is the way to go, and I don't agree with that. When I was there we had some soldiers from the 3rd ID that opened up on an ambulance that was only trying to come to the aid of a little girl who was unfortunate enough to be too close to a car bomb right outside our fence. They killed him and subsequently the little girl died. I personally knew this man and he was a good man. He came onto our FOB every day to work on IA Island where we trained the future IA soldiers. It was a sad day for everyone. The problem is how much restraint you should use. It is always a judgment call and you usually only have a few seconds to make a decision. For example, I had an incident where my convoy was re-routed through the city we were in because the main route outside of the city was being cleared of IED's. I was the lead gun truck. We were caught behind an Iraqi civilian who was stopped at an intersection, and we were at a complete standstill. Cars were approaching us from either side and my gunner was itching to shoot him. Fortunately cool heads prevailed, and after about five long seconds the man moved out of the way and we were on our way. What was going through my mind was 1. The man was in an empty truck that seemed to pose no immediate threat; I believed he was scared and panicked. 2. The cars approaching us were over 100 meters away and posed no immediate threat. 3. A quick scan of the buildings surrounding us showed no signs of snipers, and 4. A quick check with the other gun trucks assured me that they saw no immediate threats in their areas. That is a lot of information to process in such a short amount of time. I know that in a few more seconds I would have given the order to fire as the cars approaching us would be danger close for my gunner and the safety of my men and the vehicles that we were escorting was first and foremost, but also avoiding unnecessary civilian injuries/deaths. This is what we encounter every time we leave the wire. Snap decisions that are literally a matter of life and death. Finally, your last part is again completely accurate. Anyone who has joined the military, especially the Army or Marine Corps has to know that they will eventually be sent overseas. If they think that they won't, they are sorely mistaken. On a side note, the Army has about 37,000 soldiers who have managed to duck service in Iraq or Afghanistan. The Army knows who these soldiers are, and they have been told to start packing. Unless you have a very real and very valid reason for not going - family issues, legal issues, or your duty position at the time - you will go, no questions asked. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Dana [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 12:50 PM To: CF-Community Subject: Re: Three Cheers for Canada glad to hear you agree. But I seem to remember reading that some of those soldiers said they were ordered to "keep the prisoners awake" and "soften them up" and the like. (Quotes from memory and could be a bit wrong). So where are the guys who gave the orders, is my question. I blame them more than a disoriented kid from Western Maryland, or West Virginia, hardly a hotbed of moral discussion. Not that I am suggesting that the soldiers did nothing wrong -- just that they were tools and the tool-users escaped all consequences. And what do you do when a family in a car is afraid to stop at a checkpoint? I hear the soldiers in Iraq open fire. I don't think I blame them; this is a prelude to a suicide bombing sometimes, yes? But I also hear that there are so many checkpoints run by so many groups in Baghdad that some people think the safest thing to do is in fact to try to run them rather than risk abduction. Now there's a moral dilemma I am glad I don't have to sort out. What about when the house full of terrorists turns out to be a wedding party? Is that a war crime or is it collateral damage? It's a very messy war. I can see why some people would have moral issues. But perhaps the thing to do was think these things through before enlisting. I am as compassionate as the next person but I still feel as though once you sign up, you go. Dana ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/message.cfm/messageid:246655 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
