H.- I really couldn't stomach the new-age Tarot stuff either, especially when it was pounded into Poi. :-) -Ben
> -----Original Message----- > From: Howard Owens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 6:43 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Psychics (was RE: From the OMFG files) > > > As a spiritual person, I believe any thing is possible. And so long as > science hasn't disproved it, then I also accept it as > possible. I believe > there is a spiritual realm we can barely grasp. > > As a Christian, I think it's a sin for me to go to a psychic and seek > guidance, but I have often been tempted and actually did once go. > > Right after college, I was living with a girl (living in > sin!<g>) who was > really into the new age stuff (I thought she was a religious > Catholic when > we started dating, but then she went more and more into new > age stuff, which > I eventually couldn't stomach). At any rate, she took me to a > tarot card > reader and out of curiosity, I went along with it. The reader made two > specific predictions about my life: > > 1) Within a year, the small twice-monthly newspaper I owned > would grow from > an 8-page paper to one that published every week at 32 pages. This > prediction came true. Unfortunately, I no longer owned the > paper by the time > it did. > > 2) That I would become a science fiction writer. When I > objected and said I > really don't like SF that much, she said, "Well, you're going to write > something and it's going to have to do with space." I've > since found it > interesting that I become an HTML Author in Cyberspace ... mum ... > > When times are going bad, I often think I might go see > another tarot card > reader and see what the future holds, but I never do. > Chicken, I guess. > > H. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 8:17 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > I'm not familiar with any studies. Personally I'm very > skeptical. There's > been a regular feature on the track records of various psychics and > clairvoyants in the magazine the Skeptical Inquirer. Overall, > their accuracy > has been slight below chance. > > Moreover I'm not too sure how to set up a good experiment to > test such. > Rhine cards are easily spoofed, scientists are as likely to > be taken in by > cold reading as any one else, how to control for compliance > effects etc. > > Now I'm not familiar with any neurophysiological research in > the area, a > good place to start is the American Psychological Association > (http://www.apa.org) or the American Psychological Society > (http://www.psychologicalscience.org/) web sites. One > interesting study I > recall, I'll have to dig up the citation for it, found that > there was a > fairly unique pattern of EEG during religious epiphany - > however it was very > similar to what is seen in temporal load epilepsy. That leads > to an obvious > question that I do not want to touch. Instead of just getting flamed > virtually, I'd probably be burned at the stake. > > Regardless, trying to test that EEG relationship would be > another impossible > experiment unfortunately. > > larry > > -- > Larry C. Lyons > ColdFusion/Web Developer > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > EBStor.com > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > tel: (703) 393-7930 > fax: (703) 393-2659 > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > http://www.pacel.com > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > -- > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael Corrigan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 11:00 AM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: Re: From the OMFG files > > > > > > I was joking with you man! Sheesh, so serious. ;^) > > > > Hell, if I knew as much about psychology stuff as you do, I'd > > be totally messing with people! Not so much as to hurt > > someone, but more just to see how crazy I could make someone > > before they went truly nuts. > > > > But seriously, I have this strange fear of door handles, do > > you think that it somehow stems from my childhood? (that was > > a joke too!) > > > > Actually, what's your take on things like 'clairvoyants' like > > John Edwards or psychic George. Is there any evidence that > > shows that these sort of abilities are possible? I'm not > > debating whether these guys are legit, but just if you have > > any insight as to whether there is some scientific evidence > > that these folks or others like them have a real gift or is > > it more likely a scam. you mentioned that things like MRI's > > can pick up brain activity. I was wondering if you knew of > > studies that demonstrates that these people have distinct > > brain patterns. I'm not trying to start some whacky debate > > here. I consider you an expert and respect your opinion on > > such matters. > > > > Michael Corrigan > > Programmer > > Endora Digital Solutions > > 1900 Highland Avenue, Suite 200 > > Lombard, IL 60148 > > 630-627-5055 ext.-136 > > 630/627-5255 Fax > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Larry Lyons > > To: CF-Community > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:43 AM > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > some anger yes. Would it have been better to have said > > "Mike chill out." > > Probably. However I have yet to see a professional > > diagnosis start out, > > "Mike, you're nuts and really need some Prozac" talk". > > Then again, in the > > clinic etc we would use that sort of talk with us. > > > > The problem is that the discussion of irrational beliefs > > began to lead > > towards the start of a very specific analysis. One can talk > > in general about > > this, but it was getting far to close to my acting like a > > professional > > psychologist when I am not licensed to be such. You can say > > things in > > general, but there were factors in the conversation that > > were simply too > > close. Because of that I have to back off. > > > > larry > > > > -- > > Larry C. Lyons > > ColdFusion/Web Developer > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > > EBStor.com > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > > tel: (703) 393-7930 > > fax: (703) 393-2659 > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > > http://www.pacel.com > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > > -- > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Michael Corrigan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:33 AM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: Re: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > > But for me to attempt a specific analysis of someone with > > > whom I'm interacting with would be highly unethical. > > > > > > Then what was all of that "Mike, you're nuts and really need > > > some Prozac" talk....;-) > > > > > > I'm telling.... > > > > > > > > > Michael Corrigan > > > Programmer > > > Endora Digital Solutions > > > 1900 Highland Avenue, Suite 200 > > > Lombard, IL 60148 > > > 630-627-5055 ext.-136 > > > 630/627-5255 Fax > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Larry Lyons > > > To: CF-Community > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:29 AM > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > You do not understand then. I have not made any judgements > > > or ascribed any > > > blame regarding anyone on this list. I suggested that you > > > look at these > > > beliefs and see if they apply to you. If you have read that > > > material, you > > > would see where I am coming from, these beliefs are > > > endemic, to some extent > > > we all endorse one or more of these beliefs. > > > > > > I am not saying one way or another whether any of these > > > beliefs specifically > > > apply or not. For me to go further would be a violation of > > > professional > > > ethics. I can not and will not play psychologist here. I am > > > not a licensed > > > clinical psychologist. I can discuss my research, political > > > opinions etc. > > > But for me to attempt a specific analysis of someone > > with whom I'm > > > interacting with would be highly unethical. > > > > > > larry > > > > > > -- > > > Larry C. Lyons > > > ColdFusion/Web Developer > > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > > > EBStor.com > > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > > > tel: (703) 393-7930 > > > fax: (703) 393-2659 > > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > > > http://www.pacel.com > > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > > > -- > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:20 AM > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > > > I'll read all this at lunch but would like to point out one > > > > thing that I > > > > saw in my cursory scan > > > > > > > > "I'm quite willing to be that you endorse many of > > these irrational > > > > beliefs." > > > > > > > > Now by saying that you are one giant hypocrite. Remember > > > > when I accused > > > > you of wearing blinders about Clinton. You exploded > > > with, You don't > > > > know me...you can't stereotype me...yada yada yada. > Well that > > > > statement > > > > you made seems to me you did just the same thing to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:12 AM > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > Kevin, > > > > > > > > First off to the CF-Community - this is a large note, really > > > > large. Its > > > > partially taken from my master's thesis and some material > > > scraped off > > > > the > > > > web. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:08 AM > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > > > > > I suffer from bi-polar depression and no matter how > > > depressed I get, > > > > > which isn't very often as I have medication for it. But > > > > even before I > > > > > was diagnosed and took the medication I never felt > > the desire > > > > > to embrace > > > > > irrational beliefs. I just don't buy it, sorry. > Just look > > > > > at any court > > > > > case where any type of mental disability or incapacity is > > > > > involved. The > > > > > defense has an expert on their side saying that it's a > > > > problem and the > > > > > prosecution has an expert saying that it's not. When it > > > > > comes to matter > > > > > of the mind, which "expert" do you believe? In this > > > case, with my > > > > > personal experience, I don't buy the depression bit. > > > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > I look at the person's publications etc. In other words his > > > > professional > > > > reputation. I'd rather trust a Aaron Beck of SUNY rather > > > than someone > > > > with a > > > > terminal masters from a no-name bible college. > > > > > > > > Moreover some definitions are needed, I think that > there is a > > > > disconnect > > > > between what you call irrational beliefs and what I use for > > > > the term. To > > > > me > > > > its a fairly operationally defined type of cognition. > > - btw the > > > > following > > > > is taken from > > > > > http://www.scs.unt.edu/classes/RHAB/5300/RationalEmotiveBehavi > > > > orTherapy. > > > > html > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > To start, our thinking, emoting and acting all > > interact together. > > > > Nothing is > > > > experienced in isolation. Emotion is said to have no > > > single cause or > > > > result > > > > but can result from the senses, the stimulation of the > > > nervous system, > > > > thinking about something that has importance or calling up > > > > thoughts of a > > > > previous emotional experience. > > > > > > > > If you want to control the emotions, there are four major > > > > ways to do so. > > > > The > > > > first is by electric shock or with drugs. The second > > way to change > > > > behavior > > > > is to utilize another system such as physical movement or > > > variation in > > > > breathing. Emotional states and prejudices can be seen as > > > motives to > > > > change. > > > > The last way is to use your thinking and exert > > control with your > > > > thoughts. > > > > > > > > The roots of maladjustment are Irrational Beliefs > (iBs). These > > > > irrational > > > > beliefs significantly contribute to or "cause" emotional and > > > > behavioral > > > > disturbances. Dysfunctional, negative, or other > > > > self-defeating ideas can > > > > cause a person to be neurotic and disturbed. Irrational > > > Beliefs (iBs) > > > > are > > > > beliefs that are unrealistic, illogical, absolutist and held > > > > to tightly > > > > even > > > > when they can't be proven. In contrast, an adjusted person's > > > > thinking is > > > > logical and realistic most of the time. People who are less > > > > neurotic and > > > > self-defeating are also those who are flexible and not > > > > dogmatic in their > > > > thinking. Ellis (1994) hypothesized that emotionally > > > disturbed people > > > > commonly have a number of iBs and practically all of them > > > arise from > > > > their > > > > taking a sensible preference or desire and raising it to > > > a grandiose, > > > > absolutist must or demand. Within the REBT framework, > > > people who hold > > > > the > > > > irrational demand that they absolutely must perform well > > > at certain > > > > tasks > > > > and relationships often use poor thinking methods to > > confirm these > > > > ideas. > > > > People truly diagnosed as disturbed or maladjusted > > display similar > > > > ideas. > > > > > > > > When an undesirable or unfortunate activating event or > > > adversity (A) > > > > occurs, > > > > two routes can be followed. A person experiencing the > > > event can choose > > > > to > > > > respond and develop a rational belief (rB) which is a > > > belief that is > > > > self-helping or socially acceptable to the community as a > > > > whole. Others > > > > may > > > > respond to the activating event with (iBs). In both cases, > > > > there will be > > > > consequences (Cs). A pers! on with (iBs) may > develop unhealthy > > > > consequences > > > > (Cs) such as depression. The opposite is true for the > > person who > > > > responds > > > > with (rBs) they may feel sorrow or regret but the (Cs) > > > that result are > > > > healthier for the person. > > > > > > > > The method of enhancing adjustment is to teach a person > > > to dispute his > > > > iBs > > > > and develop an effective new philosophy. Even when the > > > > activating event > > > > is a > > > > fatal illness, REBT techniques can be employed. It is > > > unlikely that an > > > > individual will be able to think rationally all the > > time. Even as > > > > children > > > > we are open to suggestion and we may easily take on > > > destructive ideas > > > > from > > > > our parents or from our culture. Additionally, we have a > > > strong innate > > > > tendency to take any strong desire and make it something > > > necessary to > > > > have. > > > > We also have innate and acquired self-defeating tendencies: > > > > we take our > > > > goals and desires and transform them into demands and > > > commands. This > > > > tendency is both biological and socially learned. In the > > > early days of > > > > humanity, this may have been a life-preserving tool. Early > > > > humans had to > > > > ward off dangerous encounters. Though therapy can't change > > > > all the ideas > > > > we > > > > are exposed to, it can help us think more effectively. > > > > -- > > > > Generally these beliefs include Black and white thinking > > > (absolutism); > > > > Filtering; Over-generalisation; Mind-reading; > > > > Fortune-telling; Emotional > > > > reasoning and Personalising. Here are some typical > > > Irrational Beliefs > > > > (your > > > > milage may vary). > > > > > > > > -- > > > > I need love and approval from those significant to > me - and I > > > > must avoid > > > > disapproval from any source). > > > > > > > > To be worthwhile as a person I must achieve, succeed at > > > whatever I do, > > > > and > > > > make no mistakes. Perfectionism > > > > > > > > People should always do the right thing. When they behave > > > obnoxiously, > > > > unfairly or selfishly, they must be blamed and punished. > > > > > > > > Things must be the way I want them to be, oth-erwise > > life will be > > > > intolerable. > > > > > > > > My unhappiness is caused by things that are out-side my > > > control - so > > > > there > > > > is little I can do to feel any better. > > > > > > > > I must worry about things that could be danger-ous, > > unpleasant or > > > > frightening - otherwise they might happen. > > > > > > > > I can be happier by avoiding life's difficulties, > > > unpleasantness, and > > > > responsibilities. > > > > > > > > Everyone needs to depend on someone stronger than > themselves. > > > > > > > > Events in my past are the cause of my problems - and they > > > continue to > > > > influence my feelings and behaviours now. > > > > > > > > I should become upset when other people have problems, and > > > > feel unhappy > > > > when > > > > they're sad. > > > > > > > > I shouldn't have to feel discomfort and pain - I can't > > > stand them and > > > > must > > > > avoid them at all costs. > > > > > > > > Every problem should have an ideal solution - and it's > > > > intolerable when > > > > one > > > > can't be found. > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Now given that, in the research I've conducted, we have used > > > > standardized > > > > tests that looked the degree of endorsement of irrational > > > beliefs. We > > > > found > > > > significant relationships between the number and > > magnitude of the > > > > irrational > > > > beliefs and high levels of depression, anxiety, and > > > generalized anger > > > > among > > > > others. Those people with high levels of > depression, anxiety, > > > > generalized > > > > anger etc tended to endorse more of these irrational beliefs > > > > that those > > > > who > > > > were not depressed, anxious etc. These relationships were > > > very similar > > > > for > > > > university student samples, participants from community > > > > colleges, office > > > > workers, people working in industrial plants, hospitals and > > > > residents of > > > > senior care homes. These relationships held up across > > considerably > > > > different > > > > samples, which suggests to me that similar relationships > > > > would be found > > > > if > > > > we were able to assess the entire population rather > than these > > > > independent > > > > samples. > > > > > > > > In terms of a psychotherapy, REBT has been found to be > > > very effective, > > > > as > > > > evidenced by literally hundreds of studies (see Lyons & > > > Woods, 1990, > > > > online > > > > version at > > http://www.lyonsmorris.com/maret/RETstudy1.htm). It is also > > > been > > > found to be effective when combined with psychotropic > > medication for > > > bipolar > > > conditions as well. However I do not have my references here > > > at work so > > > I'll > > > have to get back to you on that one. > > > > > > Now given that very long winded explanation, I'm quite > > willing to be > > > that > > > you endorse many of these irrational beliefs. However > > it would be > > > unethical > > > of me to explore this further in public. Moreover I let > > my training in > > > this > > > area lapse years ago, so it would not be appropriate to go > > > any further. > > > What > > > I can say is look over those 12 self-statements and > > consider how often > > > you > > > say them, or something similar to yourself. Then look > > at how many you > > > endorsed, the results may be quite surprising. > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > larry > > > > > > -- > > > Larry C. Lyons > > > ColdFusion/Web Developer > > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > > > EBStor.com > > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > > > tel: (703) 393-7930 > > > fax: (703) 393-2659 > > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > > > http://www.pacel.com > > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
