It is neither open nor free now. On Oct 25, 2013 4:06 PM, "Judah McAuley" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Do you really want an Internet that isn't global, open, and free? > > I fear that the fallout from this will be a reversion to nationalist > tendencies rather than a push for neutrality. That has the potential to > retard progress significantly. > > The Internet has been a force for transparency, for communication, for > dissent and dissemination, for true democracy in the person-to-person > sense. The behavior of the US government has been a major blow to that > ideal. > > Judah > > > On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 10:14 AM, LRS Scout <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > And I think in the end it will be a good thing. > > > > Its going to be painful to fix the myriad of problems we face today. > > On Oct 25, 2013 12:59 PM, "Jerry Milo Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Totally allowable. > > > > > > But...we gained a significant technical advantage by having all of the > > > communications hubs run through our networks. > > > > > > Our allies and others, maybe naively, assumed that these networks were > > NOT > > > under the total, secret control of our intelligence services. > > > > > > And they (sadly) believed some of our own press, where we claim to be > an > > > open and free society. > > > > > > I think we are going to lose our best friend status, and start to be > > > treated like just another ally. > > > And I think we are going to lose our "Switzerland" neutrality status > > where > > > countries used us as a trusted middleman. > > > And I think we are going to lose the "we will just use their > > infrastructure > > > because it is easier". > > > > > > I expect a LOT of new legislation across the world that will forbid > > > companies from using US infrastructure, and a lot of new laws > restricting > > > how US companies use and share data. > > > > > > We are going to pay a heavy price. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Judah McAuley <[email protected] > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Well, I'd say yes and no. We say that our intelligence capabilities > are > > > > used to detect and deter threats. If a country is a close ally (say, > > > > England or Germany or France), it becomes a bit difficult to argue > that > > > we > > > > were spying on them because we feared they were a threat. Everyone > > spies > > > > on everyone else to some extent. What you are seeing now is a > reaction > > to > > > > the extent of it and to the particulars of it. > > > > > > > > If we were spying on French citizens, who might be a threat to the > US, > > > we'd > > > > be normally expected to let the French know (as I understand it) and > to > > > > potentially share information gathered. The latest revelations are > > about > > > > the sheer scope of the spying, really broad and kind of blanket > > coverage. > > > > > > > > There is also the very specific nature some of it. If I understand > > > > correctly, the NSA specifically listened in on many Merkel > > conversations. > > > > If you are directly spying on leaders of strong ally nations, it is > > > pretty > > > > difficult to make a "security" argument. > > > > > > > > So, basically, it comes down to scope and details. The NSA is > supposed > > to > > > > spy. The question is on who, how often, and how much should they be > > > working > > > > with our allies? > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Judah > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 8:46 AM, LRS Scout <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See this is the part I don't get. > > > > > > > > > > Isn't spying on foreign governments kind of what these assets are > > > > actually > > > > > for? > > > > > On Oct 25, 2013 11:43 AM, "Jerry Milo Johnson" <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, even more than the rumblings from below from our own > citizens, > > > > there > > > > > > are going to be long term implications and penalties for this > > imposed > > > > > from > > > > > > outside. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is going to hurt our economy significantly, and I > think > > we > > > > are > > > > > > going to lose stewardship of the internet over these ongoing > > > > revelations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 10:53 AM, Vivec <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some far reaching implications to the US spying on world > leaders > > > and > > > > > > > storing massive amounts of data on all communications. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will we reach the point of a fragmented internet where > countries > > > set > > > > up > > > > > > > routes and networks so that their data does not pass through > the > > > US? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------- > > > > > > > Brazil and Germany have joined forces at the U.N. to press for > a > > > U.N. > > > > > > > General Resolution that promotes the right of privacy on the > > > > Internet, > > > > > > > marking the first major international effort to restrain the > > > National > > > > > > > Security Agency's intrusions into the online communications of > > > > > > foreigners. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brazilian and German diplomats met in New York today with a > small > > > > group > > > > > > of > > > > > > > Latin American and European governments to consider a draft > > > > resolution > > > > > > that > > > > > > > calls for expanding privacy rights contained in the > International > > > > > > Covenant > > > > > > > Civil and Political Rights to the online world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/10/24/exclusive_germany_brazil_turn_to_un_to_restrain_american_spies?wp_login_redirect=0 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/message.cfm/messageid:368192 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/unsubscribe.cfm
