Also remember that Iran allowed Iraq to land it's (very few) remaining aircraft and hid them until after the gulf war. Also they know they are next on the list, and GWB has said he would favor a regime change there as well. Ahhh makes me think of the good old CIA days, he is taking after his father well.
As far as the armor decision, I understood this was a political decision, and it went all the way to big Bill before it was quashed. As a dismount mech inf type (now, man I miss being light/airborne) I know the value of armor :) I know they had Humvees (the up armored ones did not find wide Army use for use until like 95-98 in the Balkans) the have 50 cals and 40mm Belt fed grenade launchers. Another thing to take into to consideration is that this was Delta and Rangers. These guys figured they would move fast, do a snatch and grab and be home. This is a standard op. Works well as long as they aren't ready and waiting, just bad luck really. I just hope if I ever have to go out, I make as good a showing as they did. Tim > -----Original Message----- > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 3:01 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: Somalia [was Iraq] > > > I also have military training (a former Canadian Armed Forces infantry > officer to be precise with both UN peacekeeping and NATO tours), > so I am not > a complete beginner. > > there was a request right from the beginning to have an armoured unit in > place. It was never granted, from what I understand the decision > was made by > Southern Command not to have a tank unit available for deployment to > Somalia. Also, (and correct me if I'm wrong here) from what I understand > there were only soft skinned vehicles and helicopters in place. Not even > mounted recon units with specialized armoured hummvees - they are equipped > kevlar armor and 30mm autocannon. Those alone could have made a > significant > difference. As for who should get prosecuted, the military commanders who > made these bad decisions not to give the troops going into the > situation all > the support they needed should be prosecuted. As for the > political leaders, > that is another matter. > > While Chechnya showed what stupid armour deployment can do (or rather not > do), when the rescue column went out, it would have been much > easier for the > soldiers in the column if they were backed up by Bradley or Linx AFV's, at > the very least. As far as I remember studying the issue, the > British forces > in their sectors used Warrior AFV's and armoured Land Rovers in their > patrols. > > The negligence I was referring to was the deliberate ignoring of > intelligence data by the theatre commander along with the misdeployment of > backup units. Regardless of the political masters, the senior officers who > planned the mission missed so much obvious points that they > should have been > up on charges. They were told by the British, Canadian and Italian forces > that Aideed was out for a fight, and they did not take that into account. > Real stupid if you ask me. > > Urban warfare is the nightmare of any decent infantry soldier, whether > defending or assaulting a position. its good to know that army is > trying to > learn from its errors. > > As for violating signed and ratified international treaties, there is a > couple of court cases regarding the Boundary Waters Treaty that > come to mind > - for instance the Garrison River project in North Dakota. > > As for Iran helping out Iraq given a US invasion, I doubt it. > Remember that > the two countries fought a very bloody war through the 80's that > did not end > until Iraq began using chemical weapons. Given that history its doubtful > that Iran would participate. > > regards, > > larry > > -- > Larry C. Lyons > ColdFusion/Web Developer > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > EBStor.com > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > tel: (703) 393-7930 > fax: (703) 393-2659 > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > -- > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Timothy Heald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:27 PM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: RE:Somalia [was Iraq] > > > > > > Wait a second. > > > > Good to see the after action report from the arm chair commandos. > > > > I know a bit about how airborne and ranger ops are run. I > > also know a bit > > about how interdiction, peace keeping ops and snatch and > > grabs are run. Now > > it is nice to sit back here today and say that the officers > > involved should > > have done this or that, but they were operating out there on > > their own. If > > anyone is to blame it is Mr. Clinton himself. So you think > > the Senior > > Commander should have been charged with negligence? Well > > he's already lost > > the ability to practice law, and is practically a running joke in this > > country, I wouldn't mind seeing him in prison though. > > > > Were there tactical mistakes made? Yes, but that's how we > > learn. I can > > tell you that every American Infantryman gets much better > > MOUT (military > > operations in urban terrain) training because of that > > incident. We always > > have water and NODs(Night Optical Devices). We know how to > > move better > > through the terrain and how to use it to our advantage. > > > > Another thing that has been mentioned but not focused on was > > the ratio of > > kills and wounded. You took a single ranger company and they killed a > > battalion of enemy forces, with the enemy forces having heavy > > weapons and > > missile and rocket systems. We won that engagement, we got > > the prisoners. > > Clinton made us lose the "war" though. By puling out after > > the loss of those > > soldiers he basically pissed on their graves. Don't send > > American troops > > anywhere if it is not important enough for them to give their live, > > especially not infantry soldiers. We don't know anything > > about being police > > officers or diplomats. We know hoe to meet with and destroy > > (read KILL) the > > enemy. That's it. > > > > On to the original argument, the invasion of Iraq. > > > > Should we invade Iraq? I don't think we should right now. He has not > > crossed any borders, and he has agreed to let inspectors back > > in. He gets > > the point. I am afraid that this war would not be like the > > one when he > > invaded Kuwait. It would be an invasion, with out local > > support from other > > Arab countries by the US and England. We would have the > > support of Kuwait > > and that's about it. We would face a much more determined > > military inside > > the borders of Iraq, as they would be defending their > > homeland. We would > > probably have to deal with Iran jumping into the fray as > > well. Not a good > > Idea. > > > > As far as weapons inspections go, believe it or not as part > > of our various > > disarmament treaties with Russia we do actually have > > occasional weapons > > inspections in the US, so we do really allow inspectors in. > > > > Also I would like to know, what international treaties, that > > we first signed > > and then congress ratified, have we violated? > > > > Plus I was wondering why you think that elections in the US > > would need to be > > democratic since we are not a democracy, we are a > > constitutional republic? > > > > Tim > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 1:34 PM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: Iraq > > > > > > > > > It was a stupid operation from the first. The commander on the > > > ground wanted > > > armour backup from the start. That was denied. The mission > > > planners ignored > > > intelligence reports from other UN forces that Aideed was > > looking for a > > > major confrontation. It was such a stupid cockup all around that > > > the senior > > > command should have been charged with negligence. > > > > > > larry > > > > > > -- > > > Larry C. Lyons > > > ColdFusion/Web Developer > > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > > > EBStor.com > > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > > > tel: (703) 393-7930 > > > fax: (703) 393-2659 > > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > > > -- > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Nick McClure [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 12:06 PM > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > Subject: RE: Iraq > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but the casualties could have been prevented. I think we all > > > > understand that war is hell, people die and shit happens. > > > > > > > > But when people determine they won't get shot at anyway, > > why wear the > > > > body armor, or we are not going to be out that long, lets > > not worry > > > > about night vision, or extra water, or extra ammo. > > > > > > > > When the US goes up against people who have less training > > and inferior > > > > equipment it is easy to do more damage, when that becomes > > common it is > > > > easy to get cocky. When you get cocky you begin to believe you are > > > > invincible, and then you cause problems. > > > > > > > > When the people in the field say they need something in order > > > > to do this > > > > job correctly, the administration shouldn't deny the > > request because > > > > they don't want to appear like an invading force, or are > > afraid they > > > > will offend people, then they shouldn't have given out the task. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:51 AM > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > Subject: RE: Iraq > > > > > > > > > > But 18 troops to over 2000. And the number of Somali > > > > wounded was never > > > > > tallied. By most other definitions that would be a pretty close > > > > example of > > > > > a > > > > > near victory. > > > > > > > > > > > It also taught the importance of people in the administration > > > > > > taking the > > > > > > advice of the people in the field. > > > > > > > > > > Funny going back to the 1960's, I thought that they had > > learned that > > > > > lesson > > > > > - no micromanagement of the military effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for taking casualties, that has always been a part of > > > > the military. > > > > But > > > > > the current reluctance to lose even a single soldier is > > > > recent. Up and > > > > > until > > > > > the Korean conflict the American military did not have that > > > > attitude. > > > > For > > > > > instance since the Spanish American war in the 1890's > > > > through the late > > > > > 1920's there was a very vicious guerilla war fought in the > > > > Philippines, > > > > > with > > > > > hundreds of American casualties every year. Similarly > > in the 1920's > > > > there > > > > > was a similar operation in Haiti and in Central > > America. Again with > > > > fairly > > > > > substantial casualty counts. > > > > > > > > > > After Korea and Vietnam however, the military has been > > very hesitant > > > > to > > > > > lose > > > > > even one soldier. > > > > > > > > > > larry > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Larry C. Lyons > > > > > ColdFusion/Web Developer > > > > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > > > > > EBStor.com > > > > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > > > > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > > > > > tel: (703) 393-7930 > > > > > fax: (703) 393-2659 > > > > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > > > > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Nick McClure [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:43 AM > > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > > Subject: RE: Iraq > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that we loose troops is always a problem, but it is > > > > > > also a part > > > > > > of being in the army, and the conduction of warfare. We all > > > > understand > > > > > > these things can happen. The reason we have such a > > problem with it > > > > > > because we know many of those problems could have > > been prevented > > > > with > > > > > > just a little bit better planning and a little less cockiness. > > > > > > > > > > > > It also taught the importance of people in the administration > > > > > > taking the > > > > > > advice of the people in the field. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:36 AM > > > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > > > Subject: RE: Iraq > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some victory in Somalia for the warlords. In the > > > > aftermath of the > > > > > > > incident, > > > > > > > over 2000 of that warlord's troops died. If I remember > > > > > > right he had so > > > > > > > many > > > > > > > losses that he was pushed out of all of his positions in the > > > > Somali > > > > > > > capital > > > > > > > in the next couple of months. About 6 months afterwards he > > > > > > died after > > > > > > > being > > > > > > > wounded in an assault on a rival's compound. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The whole incident was only a loss in the minds of the > > > > Americans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
