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> Dana
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Dana and I have been carrying this discussion offline, and she suggested I push it back live:
I still don't get why you consider it "hate language", but am rereading your and Will's responses to see what may have triggered it.
I am going to cherry pick some of your points. Please don't take offense at these thoughts. They are meant in the spirit of enlightenment,
>"Is "idol" not an offensive term?"
To some it is. Obviously to you. But no. An idol is merely an image or representation of anything. It is often an image of a divinity; a representation or symbol of a deity or any other being or thing, made or used as an object of worship. (Thank you dictionary.com)
The whole idea of a "graven image" and "false god" is a Christian idea.
>"If a Catholic prays to a saint or to the Virgin Mary he does so in the humble knowledge that he cannot apprehend the mind of God, and the hope that someone holier may be able to intercede for him. "
Can you not truly see that THIS might be considered a sin to some people, who believe praying to ANYONE but GOD is a sin?
(Not to me, but there are many people who would consider this a sin. Obviously you and other Catholics don't. But that you find it offensive I don't get.)
>"Comes a born again Christian, many of whom seem to conceive of God as some sort of bearded guy in the sky"
You are mocking and making light of their beliefs? How is this not offensive in turn? =)
>"he tells me that the cathedral of Notre-Dame is an abomination because it contains graven images."
Why can't he believe this? It seems perfectly acceptable to me. I disagree, and I would feel sad for him if he couldn't see the beauty there, There are people who believe that photographs and paintings and statues are all sinful. Why can't they hold this belief? What makes it invalid? (As long as they don't blow the art up with dynamite. THAT would be wrong, forcing others to follow your beliefs.)
>"Let's start with "illiterate." And "those times are over.""
Are either of these statements wrong? What percentage of the populace at the time of the founding of the Church could read? And can you disagree that the world has changed and "those times are over". As for the thought that the Church crafted their message to reach the masses, how can that be considered an insult? The Church very obviously did, and were wonderfully successful. Has there been any religion in the history of the world that has converted more people from another faith to theirs?
As for assertions that Catholics need to "return to the fold", give up this practice and that belief, that is simply sectarianism. She believes her sect has the right message, and that all the others should get smart and do it their way. Is this any different than what Catholics believe? Or that you yourself believe. If you could change the Church and have it move its positions to follow your own beliefs, wouldn't you? (Abortion, divorce, probably a number of others). What make that hateful or offensive? Is it really that offensive that some elses beliefs differ from yours, or that her beliefs are strong enough and deep enough that she wants YOU to follow them, so you to can be saved? I don't find it offensive. Maybe futile.
>"The writer asks why we pray to images. We do not. We pray to those the images represent"
I believe you. But if someone had a deep religious belief that any "graven image" was wrong, then can't you see that having people kneel in front of one and pray would give them the willies? It wouldn't matter to them what was in the heart and mind of the person praying. The whole thing would trigger a gut level response of WRONG, WRONG WRONG! I am not saying they would be right in that aversion, just that it would be natural.
I am not mocking you, or making light of your beliefs or feelings, but the I haven't got my mind around the thought that I should be right with you on seeing what was so offensive and "hateful" about the first letter.
To me, it seemed like a good opening treatise to talk about the differences between Christian sects. Had some true statements. Had some wrong facts. Had some opinions. All it was missing, in my mind, was a little humor.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks for taking the time to indulge my curiosity.
Jerry Johnson
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