Hello Steve,

Responses interleaved.

Best,
cz

Le 18/09/2013 09:32, Steve Hankin a écrit :
> 
> 
> On 9/18/2013 7:56 AM, Roy Mendelssohn - NOAA Federal wrote:
>> Hi All:
>>
>> NASA has used hierarchies for years, and appears committed to them.  So, 
>> either it is done in an ad hoc way, or through a standard.  That doesn't 
>> mean CF is the place for the standard, just that it would be nice to have 
>> one.
> 
> Roy,
> 
> Lets explore the avenue you have opened here:  "/that doesn't mean CF is
> the place for the standard/".  The need for hierarchies as tools for
> programming is indisputable.  But will hierarchical groups advance the
> interoperability objectives of CF?  At the start of this discussion I
> had assumed that there would be compelling examples that supported the
> introduction of hierarchies to CF.  Thus far all that have been put on
> display seem to be counter-examples(*):
> 
>   * For CMIP5 any given hierarchy is an arbitrary, brittle
>     representation.  The CMIP5 collection is better modeled by facets
>     (metadata tags) than by hierarchies.

This is a bold assertion. Different ways of "modeling" multi-model
ensembles are in different contexts. It is true that CMIP5 is currently
served/represented as a collection of flat granules.

>   * The suitcase analogy serves best to illustrate the _problems_ that
>     hierarchies can bring -- to locate the black socks in a suitcase
>     usually involves rummaging the entire suitcase.
>       o ==>  Which speaks to Rich's valid concern that the
>         data-discovery-to-data-access transition may be very negatively
>         impacted if hierarchies are not used carefully.
>   * NASA hierarchies that are 10 levels deep strike me as by definition
>     an "insider" view of a data collection.  These hierarchies may add
>     clarity for the specific satellite program communicating with its
>     designated science groups, but they are likely a barrier to an
>     outsider wanting to utilize the data.

We do not endorse NASA's current use of hierarchical data as "best
practices" :) Yes, those datasets I mentioned do exist. The
show that important numbers/volumes of hierarchical datasets are
"in the wild". Until/unless better conventions are created/adopted,
it will remain a fragmented wilderness.

> 
> To proceed forward we need to see some compelling use cases that will
> help us to understand the costs and benefits?

I agree that one or more consensus use-cases which
are appropriate for CF are indispensable.
Please comment on new thread

Are ensembles a compelling use case for "group-aware" metadata?

> 
>     - Steve
> 
> (*) with the exception of Feature Collections types already contained in CF
> 


-- 
Charlie Zender, Earth System Sci. & Computer Sci.
University of California, Irvine 949-891-2429 )'(
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