Jim,

I'm hoping more data providers follow your approach, as it will gradually
bring along software developers, other data providers, and ultimately
conventions authors.  I gave a talk
<http://www.unidata.ucar.edu/presentations/Rew/agu_2010_nc4_Rew.pdf> at AGU
a few years back about how to manage the transition to the netCDF-4
enhanced data model.  The obstacles to the transition are summarized in
slides 19-21, where my lack of artistic talent is demonstrated in an
illustration of the "chicken and egg logjam".

--Russ


On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 9:25 AM, Jim Biard <[email protected]> wrote:

>  Tim,
>
> You can use netCDF-4 without "classic" format, but for true, full CF
> compliance you can't use any new features.
>
> Personal opinion alert!!! The following is just my personal opinion. I'm
> not trying to stir up trouble. I'm just sharing my observations on my
> experiences. Please don't hate me.
>
> The official CF community position is that for backwards-compatibility
> reasons, they would rather not adopt new features unless there is no "good"
> workaround using the old feature set. Contention can arise over the
> question of whether you view the workaround as "good" or not, but that
> seems to be roughly how the thought goes. The CF community also do not view
> themselves as developers of new features that aren't driven by present
> needs. They are also interested in maximizing the ability of (sometimes
> theoretical) existing CF-aware analysis packages to properly handle all
> CF-compliant files.
>
> In previous conversations I've been given to understand that the effective
> process for bringing new netCDF features into CF will be for someone to use
> them in a dataset, doing their best to interpret CF in the light of the new
> features. If it is a popular dataset, it will push the CF community towards
> adopting some form of those new features.
>
> In a case where I was developing a new dataset that would have been
> particularly unwieldy (in my opinion) without groups, I went ahead and used
> them, applying a hierarchical scope approach to file and group attributes.
> As my dataset is not likely to be widely used by any analysis packages, it
> will not likely cause anyone grief or drive the adoption of new netCDF
> features into CF.
>
> Grace and peace,
>
> Jim
>
>
> On 9/10/14, 9:53 AM, Timothy Patterson wrote:
>
> Is it correct to say that, although they don't explicitly state it, the CF 
> conventions (1.6 and the draft 1.7) restrict compliant netCDF products to be 
> either netCDF-3 or netCDF-4 in classic format? There are no conventions for 
> the enhanced features such as groups and user-defined types like enumerated 
> variables, and Section 2.2, as an example, bars the use of unsigned integer 
> variables or string variables (which are even stated not to exist, again 
> implying classic-model only).
>
> There are some features of the enhanced model we want to use for our future 
> datasets (such as groups) and some features which would make life easier but 
> could be worked around if it led to CF compliance (enumerated types, unsigned 
> integers, string types, etc.). Are there any plans to introduce conventions 
> for the use of these enhanced features at some point in the future or would 
> non-classic model datasets always be seen as non-compliant?
>
> Thanks for your insights on this issue!
>
> Regards,
>
> Tim Patterson
>
>
>
> ---------------------
>
> Dr. Timothy Patterson
> Instrument Data Simulation
> Product Format Specification
>
> EUMETSAT, Eumetsatallee 1, D-64295 Darmstadt, Germany
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