Hi Dan,

Your example looks correct to me.  Not that I'm an expert or anything,
but if you *are* confused, at least you're not alone.  :)

Cheers,

--Seth


On 12/17/2015 4:35 AM, Hollis, Dan wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I thought I understood coordinates until I read this post  :-)
> 
> I've waded through much of #104 and re-read some bits of the CF convention 
> and NUG. As far as I can tell both 'auxiliary coordinate variable' and 
> 'scalar coordinate variable' are concepts introduced by CF i.e. they don't 
> exist in the NUG. Is that correct?
> 
> In an attempt to help myself understand all the different flavours of 
> coordinate I've put together the following simple example that I think 
> demonstrates all the possibilities.
> 
> 
> dimensions:
>   x = 180;
>   y = 290;
>   p = 1;
>   n = 5;
> 
> variables:
>   float d(y, x, p, n);
>     d: coordinates = "lat lon h s a z t";
> 
>   float x(x);  # coordinate variable
>   float y(y);  # coordinate variable
>   float p(p);  # size 1 coordinate variable
> 
>   float lat(y, x);  # auxiliary coordinate variable
>   float lon(y, x);  # auxiliary coordinate variable
>   float h(p);  # size 1 auxiliary coordinate variable
>   char s(n);  # string-valued auxiliary coordinate variable
>   char a(p);  # size 1 string-valued auxiliary coordinate variable
> 
>   float z;  # numeric scalar coordinate variable
>   char t;  # string-valued scalar coordinate variable
> 
> 
> Is this a valid example? Have I missed anything out, or completely 
> misunderstood some aspect? I hope I'm not creating further confusion...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: CF-metadata [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of 
> [email protected]
> Sent: 17 December 2015 09:04
> To: [email protected]
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] On scalar coordinate variables
> 
> Hi David,
> 
> In case (1) "double dim1" is a an NUG scalar coordinate variable. My point is 
> that the #104 text appears ambiguous to me, because it is using the term 
> "scalar coordinate variable" in a way which is different from the NUG usage, 
> but at the same time relies on reference to the NUG text for definitions of 
> coordinate variables,
> 
> regards,
> Martin
> ________________________________________
> From: David Hassell [[email protected]]
> Sent: 16 December 2015 23:38
> To: Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP)
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] On scalar coordinate variables
> 
> Hi Martin,
> 
> I've just come back to this. I think you're right that #104 refers to your 
> case (2), but is that because in case (1), "double dim1" is a CF data 
> variable and not a CF scalar coordinate variable?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> David
> 
> ---- Original message from [email protected] (09AM 09 Dec 15)
> 
>> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 09:07:22 +0000
>> From: [email protected]
>> To: [email protected]
>> CC: [email protected]
>> Subject: RE: [CF-metadata] On scalar coordinate variables
>>
>> Hi David,
>>
>> Aren't there two cases here, one in which the scalar coordinate does have 
>> the same name as a dimension and one in which it doesn't? i.e.
>>
>> (1) scalar NUG coordinate variable
>> Dimensions:
>>    dim1 = 1 ;
>> variables:
>>    float myvar(dim1);
>>    double dim1;
>>
>> (2) Scalar CF coordinate variable
>> variables:
>>    float myvar;
>>       myvar: coordinates= "dim1" ;
>>    double dim1;
>>
>> I see that ticket 104 assumes that the term "scalar coordinate variable" 
>> only refers to the 2nd example, but example (1) is declares a valid 
>> coordinate variable in the NUG sense which is also a scalar. If CF wants to 
>> exclude this, it needs to be explicitly stated that it is not allowed (or, 
>> if it is already excluded by the convention somehow, this restriction 
>> relative to the NUG convention should be clarified).
>>
>> I'm not sure that the reference to NUG is incorrect .. I certainly didn't 
>> mean to assert that.  I have the impression the NUG usage here is what users 
>> expect and so it should be in the CF convention and the other parts of the 
>> convention should be consistent. In what sense do you think it is incorrect?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Martin
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David Hassell [mailto:[email protected]]
>> Sent: 08 December 2015 14:19
>> To: Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP)
>> Cc: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] On scalar coordinate variables
>>
>> Hello Martin,
>>
>> I think that a CF scalar coordinate variable is not a NUG-defined coordinate 
>> variable because it does not have the same name as a dimension.
>>
>> Nor is it a special type of CF coordinate variable, as was discussed in 
>> ticket #104 http://cf-trac.llnl.gov/trac/ticket/104 - it could be 
>> functionally equivalent to an auxiliary coordinate variable.
>>
>> However, section 1.3 makes it clear (in italics, no less) that
>>
>>   "The use of [NUG-defined] coordinate variables is required for all
>>    dimensions that correspond to one dimensional space or time
>>    coordinates"
>>
>> which as you point out is incorrect. Perhaps that is where a clarification 
>> should go, i.e.:
>>
>>   "The use of coordinate variables or scalar coordinate variables (as
>>    defined in section 5.7) is required for all dimensions that
>>    correspond to one dimensional space or time coordinates"
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> David
>>
>> ---- Original message from [email protected] (09AM 08 Dec 15)
>>
>>> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 09:58:29 +0000
>>> From: [email protected]
>>> To: [email protected]
>>> Subject: [CF-metadata] On scalar coordinate variables
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> The CF Convention 1.6 and draft 1.7 both include, in the discussion of 
>>> dimensions in Section 2.4,  the statement that:
>>> "It is also acceptable to use a scalar coordinate variable which eliminates 
>>> the need for an associated size one dimension in the data variable."
>>>
>>> However, the convention states that coordinate variables should be 
>>> interpreted as 'NUG-defined "coordinate variables."'. The NUG is vague 
>>> about the definition ( 
>>> https://www.unidata.ucar.edu/software/netcdf/docs/coordinate_variables.html 
>>> ), but it does say "Current application packages that make use of 
>>> coordinate variables commonly assume they are numeric vectors and strictly 
>>> monotonic". It also states that "A position along a dimension can be 
>>> specified using an index", which is not consistent with the use of a scalar 
>>> coordinate variable.
>>>
>>> One application which appears to assume that coordinate variables are 
>>> vectors is the CF Checker, so we need some clarification. I'm not sure how 
>>> other applications deal with it.
>>>
>>> The problem with the current phrasing in the CF Conventions document is 
>>> that it suggests the NUG approach is being followed and then introduces a 
>>> departure from the NUG approach in a separate part of the text.
>>>
>>> I would recommend either adding after 'NUG-defined "coordinate variables"' 
>>> a clarification '(that is a scalar or vector variable with the same name as 
>>> a dimension)', or changing the statement about use of scalar coordinate 
>>> variables.
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> Martin
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CF-metadata mailing list
>>> [email protected]
>>> http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Hassell
>> National Centre for Atmospheric Science (NCAS) Department of Meteorology, 
>> University of Reading, Earley Gate, PO Box 243, Reading RG6 6BB, U.K.
>>
>> Tel   : +44 118 3785613
>> E-mail: [email protected]
> 
> 
> --
> David Hassell
> National Centre for Atmospheric Science (NCAS) Department of Meteorology, 
> University of Reading, Earley Gate, PO Box 243, Reading RG6 6BB, U.K.
> 
> Tel   : +44 118 3785613
> E-mail: [email protected]
> _______________________________________________
> CF-metadata mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
> _______________________________________________
> CF-metadata mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
> 
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