Hi Roy,I understand your concern and would agree that it would be fine to keep the standard names but to explain what we mean by them in the definitions.
So in response to Martin's questions, I would suggest the following corrections in the CF Standard Name List:
(1) '"Dissolved inorganic phosphorus" means the sum of all dissolved inorganic phosphorus in solution (including phosphate, hydrogen phosphate, dihydrogen phosphate, and phosphoric acid)' for the definition of mole_concentration_of_dissolved_inorganic_phosphorus_in_sea_water, and
(2) '"Dissolved inorganic silicon" means the sum of all dissolved silicon in solution (including silicic acid and silicate)' for the definition of mole_concentration_of_dissolved_inorganic_silicon_in_sea_water
By the way, although many oceanographers refer only to silicate as you mention, many others refer only to silicic acid. In both cases though what is meant is the sum of both.
Best regards, Jim On Fri, 24 Mar 2017, Lowry, Roy K. wrote:
Dear All, That would make no sense at all for the observational oceanographic community who have referred to silicate and phosphate for decades because all the various types of phosphate and silicate react to the standard colorometric reagents in exactly the same way. Replacing terminology in common usage with more pedantic synonyms can only result in confusion. So, the situation we have is that we have a technically precise Standard Names and Standard Names that reflect terminology in common usage. One solution might be to leave all four Standard Names in place but to clarify the definitions. In our server the pairs could be mapped as synonyms if Alison requests it. Cheers, Roy. Please note that I partially retired on 01/11/2015. I am now only working 7.5 hours a week and can only guarantee e-mail response on Wednesdays, my day in the office. All vocabulary queries should be sent to [email protected]. Please also use this e-mail if your requirement is urgent. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ From: John Dunne - NOAA Federal <[email protected]> Sent: 24 March 2017 17:14 To: <[email protected]> Cc: James Orr; Lowry, Roy K.; Alison Pamment; [email protected] Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Silicate vs. dissolved inorganic silicon Is the plan also to demote the "silicate" and "phosphate" names? That would seem to make sense to me, consistent with Jim's points. On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:13 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: Dear Jim, thanks. I think that means that we need a corrections to the statements, from the CF Standard Name list, that: (1) '"Dissolved inorganic phosphorus" means phosphate ions in solution' in the CF Standard Name definition for mole_concentration_of_dissolved_inorganic_phosphorus_in_sea_water, and (2) '"Dissolved inorganic silicon" means silicate ions in solution' in the definition of mole_concentration_of_dissolved_inorganic_silicon_in_sea_water regards, Martin ________________________________________ From: James Orr [[email protected]] Sent: 24 March 2017 15:46 To: Lowry, Roy K. Cc: Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP); [email protected] Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Silicate vs. dissolved inorganic silicon Dissolved inorganic phosphorus in seawater takes several forms, with phosphate (P043-) being only one of them. Furthermore, PO43- is not even the most abundant form at normal seawater pH. Rather it is HPO42- (hydrogen phosphate). Oceanographers do often refer to phosphate but what they really taking about is total dissolved inorganic phosphorus (the sum of all inorganic forms). The seawater system for dissolved inorganic silicon is simpler because we only need to consider two forms: silicic acid (Si(OH)4) and silicate (SiO(OH)3-). The former is more abundant than the latter in seawater. It is best then to refer to - total dissolved inorganic phosphorus rather than phosphate and - total dissolved inorganic silicon rather than silicate. For more insight see the last figure in the OMIP-BGC protocols paper in the CMIP6 special issue at http://www.geosci-model-dev-discuss.net/gmd-2016-155/ Cheers, Jim On Fri, 24 Mar 2017, Lowry, Roy K. wrote: > Dear All, > > > If one makes the assumption that all the silicon and phosphorus atoms not associated with organic ligands are > in a single chemical form associated with oxygen in solution then what Martin says is correct. In my > experience I have never known anybody challenge this assumption and I cannot think of any other anions > incorporating P and Si. Consequently, I would agree that whilst there is a theoretical semantic difference > between the members of each Standard Name pair I would agree that this could be ignored and they could be > considered synonyms. > > > Note, this only holds true as these are MOLE concentrations. The MASS concentration of inorganic phosphorus > is very different from the MASS concentration of phosphate as the oxygen atoms have mass. > > > If the decision is taken to take action on this then I would recommend that the 'inorganic_silicon' and > 'inorganic_phosphorus' names be than ones to be converted to aliases. This is based on common terminology > usage in the oceanographic community. > > > Cheers, Roy. > > > Please note that I partially retired on 01/11/2015. I am now only working 7.5 hours a week and can only > guarantee e-mail response on Wednesdays, my day in the office. All vocabulary queries should be sent to > [email protected]. Please also use this e-mail if your requirement is urgent. > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ _ > From: CF-metadata <[email protected]> on behalf of [email protected] > <[email protected]> > Sent: 24 March 2017 08:48 > To: [email protected] > Subject: [CF-metadata] Silicate vs. dissolved inorganic silicon > Hello Alison, others, > > the standard name list includes both > (1) mole_concentration_of_dissolved_inorganic_silicon_in_sea_water and (2) > mole_concentration_of_silicate_in_sea_water > > The definition of the first says that "dissolved inorganic silicon" means silicate ions in solution. Both > have units of "mol m-3". It looks to me as though they are describing the same thing. If this is true, should > one be demoted to the alias of the other? If they are different, what is the difference? > > The same question applies to mole_concentration_of_dissolved_inorganic_phosphorus_in_sea_water and > mole_concentration_of_phosphate_in_sea_water. > > regards, > Martin > > _______________________________________________ > CF-metadata mailing list > [email protected] > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata > CF-metadata Info Page - mailman.cgd.ucar.edu Mailing Lists > mailman.cgd.ucar.edu > This is an unmoderated list for discussions about interpretation, clarification, and proposals for extensions > or change to the CF conventions. > > >____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ _ > This message (and any attachments) is for the recipient only. NERC is subject to the Freedom of Information > Act 2000 and the contents of this email and any reply you make may be disclosed by NERC unless it is exempt > from release under the Act. Any material supplied to NERC may be stored in an electronic records management > system. > >____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ _ > > -- LSCE/IPSL, Laboratoire des Sciences du Climat et de l'Environnement CEA-CNRS-UVSQ LSCE/IPSL, CEA Saclay http://www.ipsl.jussieu.fr/~jomce Bat. 712 - Orme mailto: [email protected] Point courrier 132 F-91191 Gif-sur-Yvette Cedex Phone: (33) (0)1 69 08 39 73 FRANCE Fax: (33) (0)1 69 08 30 73 _______________________________________________ CF-metadata mailing list [email protected] http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ This message (and any attachments) is for the recipient only. 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