On second thoughts removing the underscores is more elegant correction than adding 'platform'.
Cheers, Roy. I have now retired but will continue to be active through an Emeritus Fellowship using this e-mail address. ________________________________ From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu> on behalf of Lowry, Roy K. <r...@bodc.ac.uk> Sent: 30 July 2018 18:49 To: Kenneth Kehoe Cc: CF Metadata List Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Platform Heave Hi Ken, You're absolutely right - should have been platform_yaw_angle. Getting the detail spot on in these things isn't easy, which is why we have discussion lists! With the way I'm currently seeing things I don't agree that pitch and roll affect the definition of heave. They are only factors that come into account with the coupling of heave into the next level of the CRS hierarchy. Cheers, Roy. I have now retired but will continue to be active through an Emeritus Fellowship using this e-mail address. ________________________________ From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu> on behalf of Kenneth Kehoe <kke...@ou.edu> Sent: 30 July 2018 18:39 Cc: CF Metadata List Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Platform Heave I agree with John the (keel to top of mast) statement is incorrect when the platform is tilted. I only inserted that to help describe the Z-axis. But I don't think it's helping. I think John is also right on point with this since I can't find a definition of heave that discusses the orientation of the platform and how it relates to the measurement of heave. That is why I'm suggesting we not try to tackle that issue. From an instrument perspective I don't think the organization writing the measurement to file actually know all the details of how the values are derived or the full reference frame. I tell people to not use the standard_name definitions unless they are positive it matches exactly, and without all the information I don't think people will be able to use a too specific definition. A less specific definition would allow the use now, and a more specific definition can be added later if needed. I did like Roy's definition of platform_yaw_angle and platform_yaw_rate. My only suggestion is to remove the underscore in "yaw_angle" in the definition of platform_yaw_rate, or use the full term "platform_yaw_angle". Otherwise it appears like a reference to a different term. Ken On 2018-7-30 10:52, John Graybeal wrote: 1) Now that we have another platform_heave comment, could we please create a new thread for the discussion on pitch/roll/heading? Maybe starting without all the historical points, at least the heave-related ones? Both are difficult conversations to follow in sequence. 2) I have a concern about the last two heave definitions. a) "Heave is the linear motion along the vertical Z-axis (e.g. keel to top of mast) with positive values representing upward motion.” I like the thrust of this definition, it’s simple to understand. However I don’t think it’s measured in the direction of keel to top of mast of the current or recent vessel position, is it? I rather assume it is perpendicular to a nominally level service, possibly in the direction of the gravity vector. The dictionary definition "Heaving is the linear motion along the vertical Z-axis” with the positive values coda seems closer. b) "upwards vertical displacement of a platform over a measurement time interval” I can’t tell how to parse ‘over’ here. An upwards vertical displacement is relative to another position, and in this case I think that ‘original’ position is being measured (at least conceptually) during another time interval. It just needs a few words, something like “of a platform when compared to its average vertical position over a corresponding time interface”. But I guess the fundamental issue is I can’t tell (and don’t actually know) what heave is determined with respect to. If my last 11 positions relative to average seas are 0, 1, 2, 2, 1, 4, 1, 2, 2, 1, 0 (think hilly!), I have no idea if the heave at the peak (‘4’) is 4 or something else — it just depends on when and how long the baseline measurement is, doesn’t it? (Or to put it another way, is the heave at the 7th point a negative number, since the ship just went down 3 units?) If someone can answer that then our best definition might be more obvious. John --------------------------------------- John Graybeal jbgrayb...@mindspring.com<mailto:jbgrayb...@mindspring.com> On Jul 29, 2018, at 04:29, Lowry, Roy K. <r...@bodc.ac.uk<mailto:r...@bodc.ac.uk>> wrote: Dear All, Giving it some thought over the weekend I realise that where we lost the plot in this discussion was when we encountered 'direction of travel'. Jim succinctly described platform motion with the phrase 'nested co-ordinate systems'. What I failed to realise - and I'm guessing I'm not alone - is that the pitch, roll, heave etc. family of terms for platform motion refer SOLELY to the innermost co-ordinate reference in that nest and that the 'zero' for these measurements is 'platform at rest'. This innermost co-ordinate reference comprises three orthogonal axes that intersect at the platform's centre of gravity. Two of these are horizontal (Ken's longitudinal X-axis and transverse Y-axis) and the third vertical (Ken's vertical Z-axis). Others make no attempt to treat these parameters in the same way as zenith, and I now realise CF shouldn't be any different. Having come to terms with this, Ken's definition elements hve a beautiful simplicity that can be slotted into Alison's compound definitions. My only problem is the inclusion of nautical terms like 'bow' and 'stern', but these can easily be replaced by generic equivalents such as 'front' and 'back'. I would also make it clearer is that zero is platform at rest. For example the definition pair for yaw become: platform_yaw_angle "yaw _angle" is the amount of rotation from the rest position around the vertical Z-axis with positive values resulting in clockwise motion when viewed from above. The vertical Z axis, also known as the "yaw axis", is an imaginary line running vertically through the platform's centre of gravity. Standard names for "platform" describe the motion and orientation of the vehicle from which observations are made. Platforms include, but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships, instruments and buoys. platform_yaw_rate "platform_yaw_rate" is the change per unit time of "yaw_angle". "yaw _angle" is the amount of rotation from the rest position around the vertical Z-axis with positive values resulting in clockwise motion when viewed from above. The vertical Z axis, also known as the "yaw axis", is an imaginary line running vertically through the platform's centre of gravity. Standard names for "platform" describe the motion and orientation of the vehicle from which observations are made. Platforms include, but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships, instruments and buoys. How does that work for people? Cheers, Roy. I have now retired but will continue to be active through an Emeritus Fellowship using this e-mail address. ________________________________ From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu>> on behalf of Kenneth Kehoe <kke...@ou.edu<mailto:kke...@ou.edu>> Sent: 27 July 2018 16:49 To: cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu> Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Platform Heave All, Sorry for joining this conversation late. This is an important discussion for my group and finding a resolution would be very helpful. For my purposes I only need a good definition, which might coincide with the nautical definitions. For example this reference<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.wartsila.com_encyclopedia_term_ship-2Dmotions&d=DwMFaQ&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=J2x5E3dUpn954rPN8-v-TFQOZiyobvfd2MaoRgJ8_Zg&s=GnqNqW163_p5PcNhTjRgd0qwnu6cR6JuDeQvE2qaBGQ&e=> would suffice for most of my needs except for the missing definition of positive direction. I've asked about defining a positive direction in the past using the "positive" attribute and it was decided to not expand that attribute. If we can define the positive direction in all the platform standard names that would be great, but it should be universally existent for all current and future platform definitions. I would prefer to not get into the details of how a value is derived in the definition as that is more of the cell_methods domain. Also I find that confusing as heave on an ocean going ship is not always measured as the difference between two GPS points but could be an integration of a speed or acceleration. This would result in two different measurements that depend on the method, but both are correct. I next attempted to come up with some definitions but I ended up going down a wormhole of different reference frames only to realize in the end my definitions will never match with the values from the vendor supplied data values because my definitions were becoming too specific. I can't find a definition of heave that takes into account tides, large waves (water or atmospheric), or orientation of the platform. They all seem to be relative to the platform position some x time ago. So here is my attempt at the definitions: platform_heave = Heave is the linear motion along the vertical Z-axis (e.g. keel to top of mast) with positive values representing upward motion. platform_sway = Sway is the motion along the transverse Y-axis (e.g. port to starboard) with positive values towards the right-hand side the platform (starboard) when oriented towards leading edge of the platform. platform_surge = Surge is the motion along the longitudinal X-axis (e.g. stern to bow) with positive values indicating motion towards the leading edge of the platform (bow). platform_roll_angle = Roll is a rotation around a longitudinal X-axis with positive values resulting in counter clockwise motion (e.g. right-hand side rising) when oriented towards leading edge of the platform. platform_pitch_angle = Pitch is a rotation around the transverse Y-axis with positive values resulting in counter clockwise motion (e.g. leading edge of the platform rising). platform_yaw_angle = Yaw is a rotation around the vertical Z-axis with positive values resulting in clockwise motion of the forward section (bow) when viewed from above. platform_roll_rate = Roll rate is rotation change per unit time around a longitudinal X-axis with positive values resulting in counter clockwise motion (e.g. right-hand side rising) when oriented towards leading edge of the platform. platform_pitch_rate = Pitch rate is rotation change per unit time around the transverse Y-axis with positive values resulting in counter clockwise motion (e.g. leading edge of the platform rising). platform_yaw_rate = Yaw rate is rotation change per unit time around the vertical Z-axis with positive values resulting in clockwise motion of the forward section (bow) when viewed from above. I know these differ from the current definitions, but I'm not completely understanding how the definitions are created. Is platform_orientation always prepended? Is a rate always defined with the same as the angle definition but with a final sentence explaining it's actually a rate? Thanks, Ken On 2018-7-25 09:50, Jim Biard wrote: Alison, It's a lovely nested reference frames problem, isn't it? Roll, pitch, and yaw are usually defined relative to a center of motion (CM) reference frame defined using the (mean) direction of motion and the up direction. In my (satellite-based) experience, the Y axis unit vector is defined by the normalized cross-product of the up unit vector with the direction of motion unit vector (Z x X). The X axis unit vector is then defined by the cross-product of the Y unit vector and the up unit vector (Y x Z). This means of forming the CM reference frame decouples orientation from motion. The X axis is not necessarily identical to the direction of motion. The vehicle reference frame may have fixed offsets in x, y, z, roll, pitch, and yaw relative to the CM reference frame, but in my limited experience those offsets have been zero. Platforms that aren't moving are an even more entertaining case, for sure! In the end, I'd tend towards referring to a CM or geospatial reference frame with the Z direction defined as "up" if I'm going to try and get detailed about it, as opposed to 'mean orientation'. But I only have experience with satellites (and a bit with airplanes). Grace and peace, Jim On 7/25/18 9:37 AM, Alison Pamment - UKRI STFC wrote: Hi Roy and Jim, Thanks for your quick comments on the definitions. I have just been looking again at the suggested text for yaw_angle: 'Platform yaw angle is the angle between the platform's longitudinal/X axis and the direction of travel. Zero yaw angle means the longitudinal axis is aligned with the direction of travel, or a reference direction if the platform is stationary. The usual sign convention is that yaw angle is measured positive when the front or leading edge of the platform is rotated clockwise from its orientation (which has the standard name platform_orientation).' The problem is how to describe the reference direction which the angle is calculated relative to. I started out by talking about 'direction of travel' and later referred to 'platform_orientation'. The definition of platform_orientation says 'The platform orientation is the direction in which the "front" or longitudinal axis of the platform is pointing (not necessarily the same as the direction in which it is travelling, called platform_course).' I've realised my new definition doesn't really make sense if direction of travel and orientation aren't the same (and clearly they can be different). Also, if 'orientation' is the instantaneous direction of the longitudinal axis, then presumably it includes yaw angle, so it isn't the right reference for measuring yaw. I've revised the text as follows: 'Platform yaw angle is the angle between the platform's longitudinal/X axis and the platform's mean orientation (i.e. its orientation not including high frequency variations due to swaying and rocking motions, for example, ship motions caused by the passing of sea surface waves). Zero yaw angle means the longitudinal axis is aligned with the mean orientation. The usual sign convention is that yaw angle is measured positive when the front or leading edge of the platform is rotated clockwise from its mean orientation (which has the standard name platform_orientation). Does it sound okay to refer to a 'mean orientation' in this way? I'm having trouble thinking of a better wording! Best wishes, Alison ------ Alison Pamment Tel: +44 1235 778065 NCAS/Centre for Environmental Data Archival Email: alison.pamm...@stfc.ac.uk<mailto:alison.pamm...@stfc.ac.uk> STFC Rutherford Appleton Laboratory R25, 2.22 Harwell Oxford, Didcot, OX11 0QX, U.K. -----Original Message----- From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu><mailto:cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu> On Behalf Of Alison Pamment - UKRI STFC Sent: 25 July 2018 13:12 To: Hamilton, Steve <sj.hamil...@fugro.com><mailto:sj.hamil...@fugro.com>; cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu> Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Platform Heave Dear Steve, Nan, et al, Thank you for proposing new standard names for platform_heave and improved definitions for existing names for platform pitch, roll and yaw. Thank you also to all those who submitted comments about these names. Regarding Steve's proposals for new names, the discussion seems to have reached consensus on the quantities themselves. Until now, our usual explanatory sentence for 'platform' has said 'Standard names for platform describe the motion and orientation of the vehicle from which observations are made e.g. aeroplane, ship or satellite.' Nan has suggested extending the list of possible platforms, which seems fair enough, so we would now have 'Standard names for platform describe the motion and orientation of the vehicle from which observations are made. Platforms include, but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships, instruments, and buoys.' I've added this into the definitions of Steve's names, leading to: platform_heave (m) 'Standard names for "platform" describe the motion and orientation of the vehicle from which observations are made. Platforms include, but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships, instruments, and buoys. "Heave" means the vertical displacement of a platform (positive upwards) over a measurement time interval.' platform_heave_rate (m s-1) 'Standard names for "platform" describe the motion and orientation of the vehicle from which observations are made. Platforms include, but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships, instruments, and buoys "Heave" means the vertical displacement of a platform (positive upwards) over a measurement time interval. "Heave rate" means the rate of change of vertical displacement of the platform over a measurement time interval.' These two names are accepted for publication in the standard name table and will be added in the next update, planned for 6th August. We have six existing platform pitch, roll and yaw names: platform_pitch_angle (degree) platform_pitch_rate (degree s-1) platform_roll_angle (degree) platform_roll_rate (degree s-1) platform_yaw_angle (degree) platform_yaw_rate (degree s-1) Nan has suggested the following definitions, based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_motions<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Ship-5Fmotions&d=DwMDaQ&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=fsDk1eg5rM-so0h_XCTK_Pl1w5MGnQK88vuvHcbhUUI&s=gxXkUfvVSqtWNEzxwyAeuKgEMzADzXWv2OOZtOBRAao&e=>. (A quick search of other online sources yields definitions consistent with these). Pitch The up/down rotation of a platform about its transverse/Y axis. The transverse/Y axis, lateral or pitch axis is an imaginary line running horizontally across the platform and through its center of gravity. A pitch motion is an up-or-down movement of the bow and stern of the platform. Roll The tilting rotation of a platform about its longitudinal/X axis. The longitudinal/X axis, or roll axis, is an imaginary line running horizontally through the length of the platform, through its center of gravity, and parallel to the waterline. A roll motion is a side-to-side or port-starboard tilting motion of the superstructure around this axis. Yaw The turning rotation of a platform about its vertical/Z axis. The vertical/Z axis, or yaw axis, is an imaginary line running vertically through the platform and through its center of gravity. A yaw motion is a side-to side movement of the bow and stern of the ship. These are useful and concise definitions. I suggest that we don't refer anywhere to 'ship', 'bow' or 'stern', since we want the definitions to apply to all possible platforms. I'm thinking also that 'port' and 'starboard' may apply to ships and aeroplanes, but perhaps not to a satellite, so are probably best avoided. Similarly, 'waterline' only applies to maritime platforms. I suggest the following amendments to make the definitions as generic as possible: Pitch "Pitch" means rotation of the platform in the vertical plane about its transverse/Y axis. The transverse/Y axis, also known as the "lateral axis" or "pitch axis", is an imaginary line running horizontally across the platform and through its center of gravity. In pitch motion, the leading edge of the platform moves vertically upwards while the rear moves vertically downwards, and vice versa. Roll "Roll" means rotation of the platform in the vertical plane about its longitudinal/X axis. The longitudinal/X axis, also known as the "roll axis", is an imaginary line running horizontally through the length of the platform and through its center of gravity. In roll motion, the platform tilts such that one side moves vertically upwards while the other moves vertically downwards, and vice versa. Yaw "Yaw" means rotation of the platform in the horizontal plane about its vertical/Z axis. The vertical/Z axis, also known as the "yaw axis", is an imaginary line running vertically through the platform and through its center of gravity. In yaw motion, the platform rotates clockwise or counter clockwise in the horizontal, relative to its orientation, which has the standard name platform_orientation. Are these okay? For names such as platform_view_angle and platform_zenith_angle we also describe how the angle itself is measured. We should do the same for pitch, roll and yaw angles while we are in the process of updating the definitions. I have come up with the following: Pitch angle Platform pitch angle is the angle between the local horizontal and the platform's longitudinal/X axis. Zero pitch angle means the longitudinal axis is horizontal. The usual sign convention is that pitch angle is measured positive when the front or leading edge of the platform is elevated above the horizontal, negative when it is below the horizontal. Roll angle Platform roll angle is the angle between the local horizontal and the platform's lateral/Y axis. Zero roll angle means the lateral axis is horizontal. The usual sign convention is that roll angle is measured positive when the right hand edge of the platform (when viewing towards the orientation direction or "front" of the platform) is elevated above the horizontal, negative when it is below the horizontal. Yaw angle Platform yaw angle is the angle between the platform's longitudinal/X axis and the direction of travel. Zero yaw angle means the longitudinal axis is aligned with the direction of travel, or a reference direction if the platform is stationary. The usual sign convention is that yaw angle is measured positive when the front or leading edge of the platform is rotated clockwise from its orientation (which has the standard name platform_orientation). Just so we can see a couple of examples of pulling all this together, I've written out the full revised definitions of platform platform_pitch_angle and platform_pitch_rate below. platform_pitch_angle (degree) 'Standard names for "platform" describe the motion and orientation of the vehicle from which observations are made. Platforms include, but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships, instruments and buoys. "Pitch" means rotation of the platform in the vertical plane about its transverse/Y axis. The transverse/Y axis, also known as the "lateral axis" or "pitch axis", is an imaginary line running horizontally across the platform and through its center of gravity. In pitch motion, the leading edge of the platform moves vertically upwards while the rear moves vertically downwards, and vice versa. Platform pitch angle is the angle between the local horizontal and the platform's longitudinal/X axis. Zero pitch angle means the longitudinal axis is horizontal. The usual sign convention is that pitch angle is measured positive when the front or leading edge of the platform is elevated above the horizontal, negative when it is below the horizontal.' platform_pitch_rate (degree s-1) 'Standard names for "platform" describe the motion and orientation of the vehicle from which observations are made. Platforms include, but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships, instruments and buoys. "Pitch" means rotation of the platform in the vertical plane about its transverse/Y axis. The transverse/Y axis, also known as the "lateral axis" or "pitch axis", is an imaginary line running horizontally across the platform and through its center of gravity. In pitch motion, the leading edge of the platform moves vertically upwards while the rear moves vertically downwards, and vice versa. The quantity with standard name platform_pitch_rate is the change per unit time in the quantity with standard name platform_pitch_angle.' The roll and yaw definitions would be constructed similarly. The pitch/roll/yaw names are still under discussion. I'd welcome further comments on these. Best wishes, Alison ------ Alison Pamment Tel: +44 1235 778065 NCAS/Centre for Environmental Data Archival Email: alison.pamm...@stfc.ac.uk<mailto:alison.pamm...@stfc.ac.uk> STFC Rutherford Appleton Laboratory R25, 2.22 Harwell Oxford, Didcot, OX11 0QX, U.K. -----Original Message----- From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu><mailto:cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu> On Behalf Of Hamilton, Steve Sent: 11 July 2018 10:52 To: cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu> Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Platform Heave Hi Nan, I agree expanding on the existing standard name descriptions does make sense and standardising for _rate and _angle What you suggest below seems acceptable Thanks Steve -----Original Message----- From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu><mailto:cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu> On Behalf Of Nan Galbraith Sent: 10 July 2018 17:39 To: cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu> Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Platform Heave Hi Alison, Steve, and all - Since we have a little time to finalize this, could we also consider updating the definitions of platform_pitch_angle, platform_roll_angle and platform_yaw_angle? Currently, these all say 'Standard names for platform describe the motion and orientation of the vehicle from which observations are made e.g. aeroplane, ship or satellite.' John Helly pointed to the helpful Wikipedia page for ship motion, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_motions<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Ship-5Fmotions&d=DwMDaQ&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=fsDk1eg5rM-so0h_XCTK_Pl1w5MGnQK88vuvHcbhUUI&s=gxXkUfvVSqtWNEzxwyAeuKgEMzADzXWv2OOZtOBRAao&e=>. The suggestions below are merged from different sections of that page, and might be a little ... long, but I'd also like to append something like 'Platforms include but are not limited to satellites, aeroplanes, ships, instruments, and buoys.' Pitch The up/down rotation of a platform about its transverse/Y axis. The transverse/Y axis, lateral or pitch axis is an imaginary line running horizontally across the platform and through its center of gravity. A pitch motion is an up-or-down movement of the bow and stern of the platform. Roll The tilting rotation of a platform about its longitudinal/X axis. The longitudinal/X axis, or roll axis, is an imaginary line running horizontally through the length of the platform, through its center of gravity, and parallel to the waterline. A roll motion is a side-to-side or port-starboard tilting motion of the superstructure around this axis. Yaw The turning rotation of a platform about its vertical/Z axis. The vertical/Z axis, or yaw axis, is an imaginary line running vertically through the platform and through its center of gravity. A yaw motion is a side-to side movement of the bow and stern of the ship. And we had something like this for heave: platform_heave (m) = upwards vertical displacement I suppose these could also be applied to platform_*_rates. Regards - Nan On 7/4/18 4:47 AM, Alison Pamment - UKRI STFC wrote: Dear Steve, > > Thank you for your message and apologies for not having processed > your proposals as yet. I have been working on the CMIP names, but > they are > reaching a conclusion and I will shortly be looking through > the many other > proposals that have been waiting for attention. > > A quick look through the > discussion of your names shows they are > pretty much agreed. You need take > no further action at this time - I > will check that the names and > definitions are clear and consistent > with existing names and get back to > you on the list with any final > comments or questions. Version 56 of the > standard name table will be > published later today - I think we can > probably finalise your names > in time for version 57. > > Best wishes, > Alison ________________________________ From: Hamilton, Steve <sj.hamil...@fugro.com><mailto:sj.hamil...@fugro.com> Sent: 03 July 2018 09:12 Please can you advise if this standard name has now been accepted and when it will be included in the CF Standard Names If there is something else to do please let me know Thanks Steve ________________________________ From: Jim Biard <jbi...@cicsnc.org<mailto:jbi...@cicsnc.org><mailto:jbi...@cicsnc.org><mailto:jbi...@cicsnc.org>> Sent: 01 June 2018 22:56 Nan, Thanks for pulling things back in. I very much like the idea of keeping technology or specific methods out of the definition if at all possible, so I like your proposal. I expect we should include platform in the definition, as well as an indication that this is dynamic (over time). How about these definitions? platform_heave (m) = upwards vertical displacement of a platform over a measurement time interval platform_heave_rate (m s-1) = upwards rate of change in vertical displacement of a platform over a measurement time interval They leave out some detail but capture the relative nature of the quantities. (In my mind, the primary detail being left out is the 'net zero' nature of the quantities, which gets back to defining the 'moving-mean' sea level reference point.) Grace and peace, Jim On 6/1/18 11:23 AM, Nan Galbraith wrote: Hi all - The latest version is confusing to me. The term 'a platform that is nominally at rest' does not apply to many platforms for which heave is calculated; the original version of that, 'a moving object above the vertical level of that object when stationary' was maybe a little more clear... if also a little wordy. And, the term 'vertical displacement determined by integrating vertical accelerations' may also not apply - I've been looking at the different ways heave is calculated, and there are a few: 'Heave can be computed from GPS RTK height measurements and from vertical accelerations measured by linear accelerometers' Why not keep it simple: platform_heave (m) = upwards vertical displacement? Do we need to be more specific than that? Thanks - Nan From: Lowry, Roy K. Sent: 30 May 2018 21:37 An afterthought. Heave is conventionally positive upwards so to make this clear I would add the word 'upwards' thus: platform_heave (m) = upwards vertical displacement determined by integrating vertical accelerations of a platform that is nominally at rest. platform_heave_rate (m s-1) = upwards vertical velocity determined by integrating vertical accelerations of a platform that is nominally at rest. Cheers. Roy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: Lowry, Roy K. <r...@bodc.ac.uk<mailto:r...@bodc.ac.uk><mailto:r...@bodc.ac.uk><mailto:r...@bodc.ac.uk> Sent: 30 May 2018 21:02 Thanks Jim, That work for me. Cheers, Roy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: Jim Biard <jbi...@cicsnc.org><mailto:jbi...@cicsnc.org> Sent: 30 May 2018 18:39 Roy, So, heave is integrated vertical acceleration? How about platform_heave (m) = vertical displacement determined by integrating vertical accelerations of a platform that is nominally at rest. platform_heave_rate (m s-1) = vertical velocity determined by integrating vertical accelerations of a platform that is nominally at rest. Jim On 5/27/18 5:38 AM, Lowry, Roy K. wrote: Hi Jim, Does "Heave" is a term used to describe the vertical displacement of a moving object above the vertical level of that object when stationary. help by getting rid of the semantically-loaded word 'height'? If not, what would? I think the confusion is because you are thinking of heave in terms of position within a reference frame. To think of it as the vertical displacement between a real platform and a massless platform is misleading- such considerations are part of the derivation of wave height from high frequency heave measurements, which isn't relevant to a discussion of the raw measurement. It's also worth bearing in mind that whilst the debate has focused on platforms floating on the sea surface, the concept of heave could in theory be applied to objects in the atmosphere. In practice, heave is measured by accelerometers that are usually combined with tilt sensors that give pitch, roll and yaw. Hence, it is totally decoupled from any reference outside the platform. To answer your last muse, to get heave from a high frequency height relative to datum time series the method would need to determine the height of the object when 'stationary'. In the case of objects on the sea, 'stationary' is considered to be a flat calm sea (i.e. no waves), which can be approximated by averaging the raw time series. So, heave could be approximated by differencing the raw and averaged data. However, I can't think why anybody would want to do that. Cheers, Roy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From:Jim Biard <jbi...@cicsnc.org><mailto:jbi...@cicsnc.org><mailto:jbi...@cicsnc.org><mailto:jbi...@cicsnc.org> Sent: 26 May 2018 23:18 My biggest concern is that the standard name definition makes it clear in some fashion or other that this is a measure of deviations from some lower frequency (or low-pass filtered) measure of vertical position. (As are sway and surge in relation to their corresponding horizontal coordinates.) As was pointed out, heave is used in certain communities, so it's reasonable to provide a standard name, but it seems rather imprecise as it has been described so far. If I have understood the explanations correctly, a time series of platform height relative to a fixed datum that has sufficient precision and frequency would fully represent the heave along with the more slowly varying effects of tide, waves, etc. So is heave, as usually used, the first-order instantaneous difference between the height of an actual platform and the height of a massless ideal platform that would maintain a fixed offset relative to the sea surface? And, just out of curiosity, how would a time series of instantaneous measures of height relative to a fixed datum be separated in practice into heave and "non-heave" height? Getting back on track, it seems to me that the definition ought to somehow assist the reader in understanding how heave relates to other measures of height. On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 3:11 AM, Lowry, Roy K. wrote: Dear Jim and John, Heave is indeed a height relative to a datum, that datum being the calm sea surface, which is a local short interval mean sea level that isn't linked into any global reference system. Indeed the 'datum' moves relative to the rest of the world - but not the platform - as tide rises and falls so many would prefer to call it an 'instrument zero' rather than a 'datum'. Heave is therefore a very different measurement to any sea level parameter and is the raw measurement recorded at high (Hz to kHz) frequency as a time series by floating wave instruments such as waveriders and shipborne wave recorders. It therefore cannot be sensibly described by the same or similar Standard Name as a measurement of height above a globally referenced datum like long-term mean sea level or geoid. Whilst the Standard Name could be 'platform_height_above_calm_sea_surface' or 'platform_height_above_stationary_position' I would argue that 'heave' is a term from the same domain vocabulary as 'pitch', 'roll' and 'yaw' and therefore should be used. John is right to point out that the heave measurement is affected by the nature of the platform with a 250,000 tonne supertanker moving up and down much less than a rowing boat in a given wave climate, especially a wind sea. That was what was behind the SBWR corrections based on platform dimensions set up by Laurie Draper and Tom Tucker back in the 1980s. Cheers, Roy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: John Helly <hel...@ucsd.edu><mailto:hel...@ucsd.edu> Sent: 26 May 2018 04:48 Can't let go of this yet. If you think about the inverse problem of deriving the sea surface elevation from the heave you would have to account for the latency of ship motion relative to the sea-surface. A wave passing under a ship induces motions that are not instantaneous either in attack or decay. J. On 5/25/18 20:42, John Helly wrote: I believe it's a synonym within the oceanographic community for the vertical motion of an ocean-going platform. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_motions<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Ship-5Fmotions&d=DwMDaQ&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=fsDk1eg5rM-so0h_XCTK_Pl1w5MGnQK88vuvHcbhUUI&s=gxXkUfvVSqtWNEzxwyAeuKgEMzADzXWv2OOZtOBRAao&e=> Ship motions - Wikipedia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_motions><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Ship-5Fmotions&d=DwMDaQ&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=fsDk1eg5rM-so0h_XCTK_Pl1w5MGnQK88vuvHcbhUUI&s=gxXkUfvVSqtWNEzxwyAeuKgEMzADzXWv2OOZtOBRAao&e=><https://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/Ship_motions><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Ship-5Fmotions&d=DwMDaQ&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=fsDk1eg5rM-so0h_XCTK_Pl1w5MGnQK88vuvHcbhUUI&s=gxXkUfvVSqtWNEzxwyAeuKgEMzADzXWv2OOZtOBRAao&e=> en.wikipedia.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__en.wikipedia.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=J2x5E3dUpn954rPN8-v-TFQOZiyobvfd2MaoRgJ8_Zg&s=vxsAvAgVXgUOS72MntIS3EeYgiYMynA6M4SbIbilSDk&e=> <http://en.wikipedia.org><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__en.wikipedia.org&d=DwMDaQ&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=fsDk1eg5rM-so0h_XCTK_Pl1w5MGnQK88vuvHcbhUUI&s=tpfIR7_HY7_jSNmPjinu0I6CgCY2PCb65KOJTYnwrFg&e=><http://en.wikipedia.org><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__en.wikipedia.org&d=DwMDaQ&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=fsDk1eg5rM-so0h_XCTK_Pl1w5MGnQK88vuvHcbhUUI&s=tpfIR7_HY7_jSNmPjinu0I6CgCY2PCb65KOJTYnwrFg&e=> Ship motions are defined by the six degrees of freedom that a ship, boat or any other craft can experience. Could just be jargon but it strike me as more complex: nonetheless a vertical position relative to a datum, but the buoyancy, stability and momentum of the platform are implied as part of the dynamics. It seems that the datum is not a geophysical one alone but confounded with the 'normal' waterline for a platform so it may be relative to the water level in which the platform is embedded. That's a tough one. Two different platforms on the same sea surface would have different 'heave', for example. J. On 5/25/18 19:54, Jim Biard wrote: Hi. I get and endorse the need for pitch, roll, and yaw, but I remain perplexed about heave. How is a time series of 'heave' different from a time series of height relative to some vertical datum? I've yet to see a proposed definition that convinces me that this is a uniquely different quantity. Grace and peace, Jim On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 7:28 AM, Lowry, Roy K. <r...@bodc.ac.uk<mailto:r...@bodc.ac.uk><mailto:r...@bodc.ac.uk><mailto:r...@bodc.ac.uk> wrote: Dear All, I agree with Nan that definitions of pitch roll and yaw would improve the existing Standard Name definitions. I also agree with using the existing orientation Standard Names for ADCPs and that the 'platform' definition wording could make this clearer. However, such an enhancements should be submitted as a separate proposal and not be considered as part of Steve's proposal. Cheers, Roy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: Nan Galbraith <ngalbra...@whoi.edu><mailto:ngalbra...@whoi.edu> Sent: 25 May 2018 14:46 I'd really like to see pitch, roll and yaw defined in the CF standard name table; currently the definitions only say 'Standard names for platform describe the motion and orientation of the vehicle from which observations are made e.g. aeroplane, ship or satellite.' Also, not to get too far into the weeds, but many of the platform terms are important for instruments like ADCPs, so I'd just like to confirm that these definitions - and the names themselves - can be used to describe instruments, not just vehicles 'e.g. aeroplane, ship or satellite'. We already use pitch roll and yaw for these instruments on surface moorings, and I hope (and assume) this is legal. Thanks - Nan Galbraith On 5/25/18 8:53 AM, Lowry, Roy K. wrote: > > > Dear Steve, > > > One of the reasons I was interested in your definitions was your > perspective on the datum (i.e. zero value) for heave. The datum > 'mean_sea_level' is well used in CF, but with the definition 'time > mean of sea surface elevation at a given location over an arbitrary > period sufficient to eliminate the tidal signals.' This is obviously > not appropriate for platform heave which doesn't take any account of > the state of the tide and so I would exclude 'mean_sea_level' from the > Standard Name. > > > I think my preference would be to keep the term 'heave' as we already > have 'pitch', 'yaw' and 'roll', giving: > > > platform_heave (m) > > > Standard names for platform describe the motion and orientation of the > vehicle from which observations are made e.g. aeroplane, ship or > satellite. "Heave" is a term used to describe the vertical > displacement of the platform above its position when not moving. > > > tendency_of_platform_heave (m s-1) > > > Standard names for platform describe the motion and orientation of the > vehicle from which observations are made e.g. aeroplane, ship or > satellite. "Tendency_of_X" means derivative of X with respect to time. > "Heave" is a term used to describe the vertical displacement of the > platform above its position when not moving. > > > What do you think? > > > Cheers, Roy. -- ******************************************************* * Nan Galbraith Information Systems Specialist * * Upper Ocean Processes Group Mail Stop 29 * * Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution * * Woods Hole, MA 02543 (508) 289-2444 * ******************************************************* _______________________________________________ CF-metadata mailing list CF-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:CF-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu> http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mailman.cgd.ucar.edu_mailman_listinfo_cf-2Dmetadata&d=DwMDaQ&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=fsDk1eg5rM-so0h_XCTK_Pl1w5MGnQK88vuvHcbhUUI&s=CiiBFNLLM7XQeXxCJzRPmC0xdxNR8BhH_tI-syw7_5k&e=> 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